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Almost hate to get in here, what with a heated argument going on.

Has anybody considered that Dan (author of LL) could not just copy the expression of the rule from Moldvay? The text describing the rule is after all subject to copyright, even though the rule itself cannot be copyrighted. So I've always thought it was originally just a case of bad wording in LL.

Maybe it was not worth the author's time later to try to find a better phrase (possibly requiring redoing the layout of pages in the rulebook), because anybody that didn't like it would just change it in play to however they wanted it?

The "spirit of the OSR" is not about slavishly worshiping the RAW, whether of the original games or the clones, as some kind of "holy writ." There are certain factions of "Old School" gamers that do that, but they tend to vehemently try to distance themselves from being identified with the OSR (they were old school before Old School became "cool").

The "OSR" is more like how 25 years ago I made up "Dwarven Crossbows" optimized for underground fighting that had a much shorter range, but did 1d10 damage. Crossbows do way too little damage in most versions of D&D etc., compared to other weapons if you are using any sort of "realism," but I just made up a variant weapon for the game and moved on with play rather than spend a lot of time "rationalizing" why "crossbows suck."

Just make up a "Dwarven Axe." Declare it a "hand-and-a-half" weapon like a Bastard Sword, give it say 1d6+1 damage if wielded 2-handed, make it midway between a Hand Axe and a Battle Axe in weight, heck state that Dwarves must use 2 hands for it if you like (forgoing use of a shield) and move on.

(I also wonder if a lot of gamers confuse the images in their minds the ideas of "Battle Axe" and "Halberd." The big curved blade on a 5-6 foot shaft was a Halberd, a kind of shorter polearm. A "Battle Axe" was probably more like a "Dane Axe," a much larger blade area than a Hand Axe, but mounted on a 3-4 foot shaft. A Hand Axe was essentially a hatchet / tomahawk size axe good for throwing or close-in fighting.)

shart2069 wrote:Almost hate to get in here, what with a heated argument going on.

Has anybody considered that Dan (author of LL) could not just copy the expression of the rule from Moldvay? The text describing the rule is after all subject to copyright, even though the rule itself cannot be copyrighted. So I've always thought it was originally just a case of bad wording in LL.

Maybe it was not worth the author's time later to try to find a better phrase (possibly requiring redoing the layout of pages in the rulebook), because anybody that didn't like it would just change it in play to however they wanted it?

I'm guessing that the copyright issue had something to do with it, but I wonder if he was also trying to come up with a less ad hoc sounding rule than what's in Moldvay, which specifically refers to two-handed swords and longbows without giving any sort of general principle underlying the restriction.

That being said, Dan hasn't yet weighed in on the issue [cue Jeopardy tune ...]

The thought had also crossed my mind regarding copyright, but you can't copyright a rule, only the presentation of it...and LL is sufficiently different in presentation.

Of course, it's quite simple to house rule...but that's not really the point of the discussion (though, some would argue otherwise).

Im not heated. I respect others opinions, even if we don't agree on things. I just "house rule" some things. Never had a problem. Your game, your rules.

shart2069 wrote:Almost hate to get in here, what with a heated argument going on.

Before you know it, this place will start looking like Dragonsfoot

aspiringlich wrote:

shart2069 wrote:Almost hate to get in here, what with a heated argument going on.

Before you know it, this place will start looking like Dragonsfoot

Nooooooooooo

I allow dwarves to use war hammers and battle axes two handed. It's never been an issue mechanically and it seems to fit the spirit of the game. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Yep lets not turn this into Dragonsfoot. There's room for every different play style here.

Hello fine people of the OSR community. I am new here and very late to the discussion, but here's my two cents anyway.
I've considered two house rule variants intended to address this problem. Here they are:

1. Give any dwarf wielding a battle axe a -1AC bonus to represent his unique dwarven fighting stile. He basically uses the shaft and the flat of the axe head to defend himself and parry as he would with a shield. That would make the battle axe in the hands of a dwarf mechanically the same as a sword and shield.

2. Alternatively, switch the places of the pole arm and the battle axe, making the pole arm a two handed 1d8 weapon with reach (meaning that it can be used to strike over somebody from second rank, just as a staph and spear should), and the battle axe a 1d10 weapon if held in two hands, and a 1d8 weapon if held in one.

For people worried about making dwarves too good of an alternative to the fighter by allowing them to use 1d10 weapons, my answer would be this: firstly, don't worry, they were always meant to use 1d10 weapons, since in Moldvay they are prohibited from using only the two handed sword, but allowed the (1d10) pole arm. The fact that LL forbids them from using two handed weapons (instead of only swords) is obviously a typo. Secondly, there's no way that a dwarf can't at least equal the elf in the physical damage dealing department. That is just not acceptable. An ELF!!! And thirdly, if you're really worried about the dwarf outshining the fighter, here are two solutions: 1. raise the amount of XP the dwarf needs to level up by like a 100. Or 2. make the fighter a little better by giving him a +1 dmg. bonus at some point in his progression. I recommend on 3rd, 7th and 11th level, the same as when the thief ups his "hear noise" skill.
Lastly, since all the other demi-humans have two prime requisites, why not make CON a prime requisite for dwarves alongside STR, allowing them to raise CON as per standard method. That way the dwarves will be encouraged to give up some of their killing potential in favor of more HP, making them tougher, but less fierce warriors than fighters