Skill system for S&S 2e?

[Stephen]

If I played the game as-is with only the 4 default skills how do you think the game handles these questions I have in regard to player competence?

In my opinion, the as-is game suffers from a very rigid approach to skill improvement.

The chance of success is largely determined by class, level, and to a lesser degree, ability score. Let's imagine Kirk has a run-in with a group of Klingons. Assuming he's a human at level 6 (captain), and his class is Military/Command, then his combat skill will be somewhere around 17, depending on his DEX. Kirk has an 85% chance of hitting his opponent. Now let's say that Spock is right next to him. Assuming he's a Tauran at level 5 (commander), and his class is Science (no subclass). His combat skill will be somewhere around 10, depending on his DEX. Spock only has a 50% chance of hitting his opponent, and if he wants to use his famous Vulcan Neck Pinch, his chances drop to 30%. There is nothing that Spock can do to improve his ability to hit, short of getting a promotion. Now let's say that the 137-year-old Admiral Leonard McCoy (who famously inspected the Enterprise-D in the TNG episode "Encounter at Farpoint") wanders into the battle. He's a human, let's say level 9 (rear admiral), and his class is Science/Medical, so his combat skill will be somewhere around 12 (accounting for his 'venerable' age), giving him a 60% chance of hitting his opponent. That's better than Spock!

If you wanted to stick with the 4 skill system, you could still use a point-buy approach. Each character would start the game with 33 + (Int bonus) points to spend however they like on skills, with no more than 12 and no less than 6 points per skill. At each new level, the character would gain 4 + (Int bonus) points to spend however they like, with no more than 3 points per skill.

Thoughts?

[daddystabz]

Your decisions and actions you take in games with fleshed out skill systems are just as important in shaping who your character is and has the advantage of saying you are not just a cookie cutter commander but unique not only in how you are roleplayed but also unique in terms of the game mechanics itself. I call that a winning hand!

No matter what my decisions are and how I play my character my rolls come down to almost the exact same numbers in the current game which means mechanically we are all cookie cutters of each other when of the same branch and subclass.

[daddystabz]

How about we keep the 4 skills as-is in the current game and tack on our own skills on top of it. I am thinking of using the same skills as found in Far Trek. The skill list in that game consists of:

Armed Melee (Covered already by Combat skill?)
Arts
Athletics
Driving
Knowledge
Language
Marksmanship (Covered already by Combat skill?)
Piloting
Streetwise
Subterfuge
Survival
Unarmed Melee (Covered already by Combat skill?)

Starship Combat
Starship Navigation
Diplomacy
Leadership

Planetary Science
Physical Sciences
Medical Sciences
Space Sciences
Life Sciences

Small Unit Tactics
Starship Engineering
Communications
Engineering

If I played the game as-is with only the 4 default skills how do you think the game handles these questions I have in regard to player competence?

In my opinion, the as-is game suffers from a very rigid approach to skill improvement.

The chance of success is largely determined by class, level, and to a lesser degree, ability score. Let's imagine Kirk has a run-in with a group of Klingons. Assuming he's a human at level 6 (captain), and his class is Military/Command, then his combat skill will be somewhere around 17, depending on his DEX. Kirk has an 85% chance of hitting his opponent. Now let's say that Spock is right next to him. Assuming he's a Tauran at level 5 (commander), and his class is Science (no subclass). His combat skill will be somewhere around 10, depending on his DEX. Spock only has a 50% chance of hitting his opponent, and if he wants to use his famous Vulcan Neck Pinch, his chances drop to 30%. There is nothing that Spock can do to improve his ability to hit, short of getting a promotion. Now let's say that the 137-year-old Admiral Leonard McCoy (who famously inspected the Enterprise-D in the TNG episode "Encounter at Farpoint") wanders into the battle. He's a human, let's say level 9 (rear admiral), and his class is Science/Medical, so his combat skill will be somewhere around 12 (accounting for his 'venerable' age), giving him a 60% chance of hitting his opponent. That's better than Spock!

If you wanted to stick with the 4 skill system, you could still use a point-buy approach. Each character would start the game with 33 + (Int bonus) points to spend however they like on skills, with no more than 12 and no less than 6 points per skill. At each new level, the character would gain 4 + (Int bonus) points to spend however they like, with no more than 3 points per skill.

Thoughts?

[Stephen]

How about we keep the 4 skills as-is in the current game and tack on our own skills on top of it. I am thinking of using the same skills as found in Far Trek.

I think that's a sound approach.

A roleplaying game is basically a model of reality. Some models come closer than others, so it comes down to style of play. One approach is to have a single skill ("Combat") that aggregates a wide variety of tasks; another is to have separate, specific skills ("Combat - Melee," "Combat - Ranged," "Combat - Martial Arts") or even more specific ("Combat - Beam Pistol," "Combat - Electrostun Gun," "Combat - Jujitsu," "Combat - Tae Kwon Do," etc.). The former has the advantage of being simpler, whereas the latter is a bit more realistic and affords greater opportunities for customization.

My personal preference is somewhere in the middle. I think there are a core set of skills that crop up in most RPGs that tend to cover most activities, without getting so specific as to be unwieldy. Specific to your list:

Armed Melee (Covered already by Combat skill?)
Marksmanship (Covered already by Combat skill?)
Unarmed Melee (Covered already by Combat skill?)

Yep, although I would probably split "Unarmed Melee" into "Brawl" and "Martial Arts" and give them separate costs and damage rolls. I would also add some special alternate effects to "Martial Arts," such as you can opt to do no damage, in exchange for throwing the opponent or knocking the opponent prone.

Arts
Knowledge
Language
Streetwise
Planetary Science
Physical Sciences
Medical Sciences
Space Sciences
Life Sciences

I think there should be a "Knowledge" skill with separate sub-skills, such as "Knowledge - Arts" or "Knowledge - Streetwise." I think this should be pretty open-ended, so that a character could have knowledge of pretty much whatever he/she likes and the GM approves (e.g. "Knowledge - Tauran Lore," "Knowledge - Chemistry," or "Knowledge - Cooking").

Driving
Piloting

I think there should be a "Piloting" skill with separate sub-skills, such as "Piloting - Land Vehicle," "Piloting - Air Vehicle," "Piloting - Water Vehicle," "Piloting - Space Vehicle." Alternatively, you could argue that one learns to pilot classes of vehicles, such as "Piloting - Cessna," "Piloting - Learjet," but I think that gets into too much detail.

Starship Combat
Starship Navigation
Starship Engineering
Communications

I think there should be separate "Starship Operations" skills for Communications/Sensors (which I think should be the same skill, which is more like TNG/Worf than TOS/Uhura), Defenses, Engineering, Navigation, and Weapons. These skills cannot be used untrained, and the use of each provide bonuses during starship combat scenes (e.g. a successful Communications/Sensors roll jams enemy sensors, providing a bonus to defense for that round).

Diplomacy
Leadership
Small Unit Tactics

I like having a Leadership skill, the us of which would provide bonuses both to regular combat and starship combat (e.g. a successful Leadership roll provides all subsequent ally rolls that round with a bonus). This would take the place of a "Small Unit Tactics" skill.

Athletics
Subterfuge
Survival

Yes to "Athletics" and "Survival." Athletics should cover things like jumping, falling, climbing, swimming, and zero-G maneuvering. Not sure what "Subterfuge" would give you.

Engineering

I think there should be an "Invention/Repair" skill (which could be one skill or two separate skills).

Things that appear to be missing:
[*]Manipulation skills (pick mechanical locks, pickpocket, sleight of hand)
[*]Stealth skills (hide, sneak, shadow)
[*]Computer use skills (operation, programming, hacking)
[*]Medical skills (first aid, forensics, medical knowledge, psychology, surgery, treatment)
[*]Interaction skills (bargain, bluff, bribe, charm, intimidate, taunt)

[Stephen]

Interaction skills (bargain, bluff, bribe, charm, intimidate, taunt)

And how could we forget "Seduce?" This is Star Trek, after all.

[daddystabz]

Any other thoughts on how to do this? Anyone out there grafted a skill list onto the game?

[Ravenspoe]

Stealing from FATE I am using a systems called "Bearings". Each player can create three facts/stunts/abilities about themselves that will give them a bonus in the game, these Bearings will also allow for some cool narrative in the game as well. Each player gets three token for each of the three bearings (and they can create this in play as well, if they do not wish to take them up front), if they use the ability they hand over a token. If I use this against them, I give them a token.

The system is rules lite, so adding a full skill system would be cool, but unnecessary. Perhaps taking an indie design approach is the direction to go. Personally I would love to use 3d6 for skill resolution, but the numbers would not crunch right and saves would be impossible.
Going to another thread, I would like to see a better starship combat mechanic. FASA had the most awesome one with the Starship Strategic Simulator, but something quick and dirty like the one in Savage Worlds would be good too.