Expanding fighter combat options.

[Agrippa]

I like the idea of fighter combat options, just not thier execution. For one fighter combat options are limited to parry, smash and extra attacks. I'm not bashing either one of those three, I'm just saying they shouldn't be a fighter's only major comabt options. Two, I hate it that they come online at 9th level at the least. Seriously people, how many campaigns are guarantied, let alone likely, to get past 9th level? Be honest here. With all that said, would anyone on this forum be opposed to expanding the number of fighter combat options and opening them up to lower level fighters?

[Wizardawn]

Show us what you got. With Labyrinth Lord having abstract combat, I can't think of anything more to do with Fighters other than the AD&D weapon proficiency system being implemented.

[Scott Anderson]

A trip and a sunder would be nice.

I think fighters could use some beef anyway- I was thinking about giving them see invisible in combat at 4th level and a taunt at 2nd level based on HD... And maybe a super-intimidate at 6.

The see invisible is from OD&D; I don't think any break the class.

The intimidate: in the first round of combat, within 30', as an attack-equivalent action, against humanoid monsters or men, they could cause them to drop what they are holding on 1-2 on D6 and flee on 1. Something like that. Kind of akin to turn undead, but not as strong.

[aspiringlich]

The intimidate: in the first round of combat, within 30', as an attack-equivalent action, against humanoid monsters or men, they could cause them to drop what they are holding on 1-2 on D6 and flee on 1. Something like that. Kind of akin to turn undead, but not as strong.

You could also tie that to charisma. Perhaps something like 13-15: 1 in 6, 16-17: 2 in 6, 18: 3 in 6, which would make it possible only for fighters with above-average charisma. Along with giving the fighter a little something extra, it would discourage using cha as a dump stat.

[Agrippa]

How about this for a start. I'm still working on exactly how to implement all this. Feel free to change every reference to "defense" to armor class or AC. I'm trying to homebrew up an armor as soak/damage reduction rule because I'm a little bit insane.

Fighter Combat Options: Like any skilled warrior, a [insert fighter or fighter variant] develops skill in combat beyond improved accuracy. These potent abilities are the cornerstone of this lethal warrior's repertoire. All primary combat options have at least a few sub options.

Parry: Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, just not in this case. By expending an attack of your own you give yourself the chance to negate any enemy's melee strike. Make an attack roll against your attacker but negate the effects of their intended attack in lue of inflicting damage. The defense score for the melee attack 9- the difference of you foe's melee attack and their attack value.

Riposte: If you beat your attacker's defense on by 5 or more points you have a free attack against him or her.
Disarm: Instead of making a riposte you can attempt to force the weapon from your assailant's hands. Make an opposed roll using the higher of your Strength and Dexterity versus the higher of your foe's Strength and Dexterity. If you succeed your enemy is disarmed, fail and nothing else happens.
Parry magic: As with a normal parry but instead of targeting the spell caster's defense you roll against a defense of 9-(spell level+relevant casting stat).

Redirect magic: You may attempt to redirect an enemy's spell with a single attack roll.
Deflect missiles: Your skill at arms allows you to perform one of the most astounding feats of martial skill around. When ever you find your self a target of missile fire you may make an attack roll to deflect it. The defense score for the missile attack 9- the difference of you foe's missile attack and their attack value.

Redirect missiles:
Dodge:
Power Attack:
Improved Trip:
Cleave:
Endure:
Arrow Catching:
Shield Expertise or Luckily My Shield Will Protect Me:

P.S. aspiringlich: Basing Scott Anderson's mass intimidate off of Charisma sounds like a great idea. I might add that to the list.

[Scott Anderson]

Neato ideas.

[aspiringlich]

Here's a blog post that seems apropos of the topic:

http://d20dialectic.blogspot.com/2013/04/what-makes-man-fighter.html

[aspiringlich]

How about this for a start. I'm still working on exactly how to implement all this. Feel free to change every reference to "defense" to armor class or AC. I'm trying to homebrew up an armor as soak/damage reduction rule because I'm a little bit insane.

Fighter Combat Options: Like any skilled warrior, a [insert fighter or fighter variant] develops skill in combat beyond improved accuracy. These potent abilities are the cornerstone of this lethal warrior's repertoire. All primary combat options have at least a few sub options.

Parry: Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, just not in this case. By expending an attack of your own you give yourself the chance to negate any enemy's melee strike. Make an attack roll against your attacker but negate the effects of their intended attack in lue of inflicting damage. The defense score for the melee attack 9- the difference of you foe's melee attack and their attack value.

Riposte: If you beat your attacker's defense on by 5 or more points you have a free attack against him or her.
Disarm: Instead of making a riposte you can attempt to force the weapon from your assailant's hands. Make an opposed roll using the higher of your Strength and Dexterity versus the higher of your foe's Strength and Dexterity. If you succeed your enemy is disarmed, fail and nothing else happens.
Parry magic: As with a normal parry but instead of targeting the spell caster's defense you roll against a defense of 9-(spell level+relevant casting stat).
Redirect magic: You may attempt to redirect an enemy's spell with a single attack roll.
Deflect missiles: Your skill at arms allows you to perform one of the most astounding feats of martial skill around. When ever you find your self a target of missile fire you may make an attack roll to deflect it. The defense score for the missile attack 9- the difference of you foe's missile attack and their attack value.
Redirect missiles:
Dodge:
Power Attack:
Improved Trip:
Cleave:
Endure:
Arrow Catching:
Shield Expertise or Luckily My Shield Will Protect Me:

P.S. aspiringlich: Basing Scott Anderson's mass intimidate off of Charisma sounds like a great idea. I might add that to the list.

Another idea: you could use ability scores to see which one of these extras the fighter qualifies for. For example, "dodge" is clearly a dex-ish thing, so you might require a 13+ dex to have it. "Power attack" might require 13+ str, "endure" 13+ con, and so forth. You could then use the thief's "hear noise" progression as a model for how the fighter gets better at these things as he advances in level. At least that's an already-existing game mechanic, so you don't have to worry about doing something that's completely alien to the system.

I have just one reserve: these things sound an awful lot like "feats "

[Agrippa]

Yes, the fighter combat options are somewhat feat-like in form. But unlike 3.x feats fighter combat options (FCO) a.) are actually useful at the levels they are gained. So no dodge-like feats or FCOs that give a -1 to AC or defense against a single enemy at a time. b.) None of them benefit casters, or are designed for casters in mind, unless you count foiling spell casters as having casters in mind. c.) What I call "standard fighter type techniques" are free for fighters, i.e. they take up no fighter combat option slots. Basically what 3.x would call Improved Bullrush, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip (the non-numerical part of it anyway) and Improved Unarmed Strike. Fighter types should be the best classes at physical combat, period.

P.S. aspiring lich: I don't care much for 3.x's/D20's feat system. It's bloated, tends to favor spell casters with stronger feats and gives non-casters crappy ones. Basically it mandates that fighter types have to jump though hoops to be better at fighting than untrained peasants, while wizards, clerics, druids and the like just have to be wizards, clerics or druids. That's a bit of an overstatement, wizards still need too add spells to their books and fighters get a D10 hit die, +1 BAB per level, all armor proficenices and all simple to martial weapons while mere peasants a D4 hit die, no armor and limited weapons. Still, it takes too many hoops to jump through to not look like a suped-up commoner. With all that said feats do make sense in Mutants and Masterminds due to it's lack of a class system.

[Scott Anderson]

What about ranged fighters? I like the idea of crossbowmen, not just bowmen and ranger types. I should think crossbowmen could function well in medium and heavy armors.

Ranged fighters ought to have some advantages if they should decide to train that way.

Maybe they get +2 to hit either with crossbows or with straight bows. +1d6 damage at 4th and 8th. At 4th level, a natural 20 deals hits equal to target's remaining hits; 8th level a natural 20 deals hits equal to target's remaining hits, plus the fighter gets an extra attack.

I can just imagine a high level fighter bringing a dragon down with one arrow...