A broad question about "old-school" gaming.

[johnoliphant3]

I want to purchase Labyrinth Lord, and nearly all the supplements I can get my hands on, but I have one lingering question with a bit of background to it.

a) My experience with tabletop RPGs has been unusual, I think. I played 3rd edition D&D at summer camp, once, about eleven years ago, and since then have read the core books and many of the supplements (and now, blogs and forums!) for every edition of it. All without managing to find playmates among my small group of friends.

b) A group formed recently among my co-workers. My big break, at last! But these folks were playing the revised 3rd edition, and it struck me how much I had come to dislike the style of play encouraged by those rules. Of course, the players and the DM could have gone a long way toward making the experience better, but it set me to studying this "OSR" I kept reading about.

c) Some friends of my roommate discovered I "knew D&D" and asked me to teach them to play. It was an odd position to be in, because I felt as though I knew scads of things about the game, but had only played a handful of sessions and knew I was in no position to DM.

d) In terms of simplicity and flavor, my research led me to favor Labyrinth Lord, especially with the Advanced Edition Companion. But, having my sensibilities cultivated in the era of 3rd edition, I have a hard time understanding why the rules, as written, forbid certain combinations of race and class. I find the other aspects truly charming. Skills being strictly the domain of thieves and using percentile dice, especially! It makes your choice of class into a choice of play-style.

e) Obviously, the greatest part of these old-school games is the way they encourage house rules. But I hesitate to go ahead and tell my player he can roll the gnome monk he drew up because I assume these restrictions are there for a good reason that is just beyond my understanding because my practical experience is so limited.

[redwullf]

Maybe this will help. It's a section out of my house rule "booklet" for my LL campaign, which is being converted into a Castles & Crusades campaign. I should point out that this is only my interpretation of the original intentions for race/class restrictions in pre-3rd editions of D&D:

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Racial Class Restrictions

Within each of the racial descriptions below, you will find detailed information about class restrictions. This concept is foreign to those who have not played original D&D and AD&D and are used to the unlimited nature of 3rd Edition and Pathfinder. In fact, such players may find these restrictions “unfair” and question why the DM would impose such limits. The fact is, racial limits have existed since the earliest days of the game, and were rigidly enforced for over 25 years before 3rd Edition came along, and for good reason!

These original rules not only limited class choices for demi-human characters, but also imposed level limits. Demi-humans could only rise to certain levels within each class, a cap set usually somewhere between 9th and 15th level. However, demi-humans, traditionally, were the only races which could multi-class, thus allowing them to attain “high levels” as characters when their individual class levels were added together.

Our campaign will not impose level limits on demi-human races. Though there were strong reasons for these limits in older editions of the game, your DM considers player characters to be exceptional versions of their race. Furthermore, in C&C, both demi-humans and humans alike may multi-class, thus this feature affords demi-humans no special benefit, and any notion of level limits are removed to compensate. As heroes in the world, all PC races may enjoy the rise to great power without restriction, often to the wonder and amazement of their kin.

A Human World

Each game world is generally assumed to be human dominated. That is, humans vastly outnumber the other races and are the driving force in the world. Most of the various realms and kingdoms in Greyhawk are human kingdoms, and this cunning race has rapidly come to master the arts of warfare, magic, and culture. How can such a race have climbed out of its barbaric, primitive roots and taken over the world without some kind of profound advantage over the other races?

The other races have built vast cities, explored the corners of the world, and mastered the might of sword, axe, and magic long before humans emerged from their caves. They developed art, culture, and even science while humans existed as simple hunter-gatherers in the wilds of the world. Somehow, through the ages, humans rose rapidly from these primeval beginnings and have come to dominate virtually all corners of the Flanaess. What advantages drove them to such high levels of success?

C&C provides humans with 3 Primary Attributes, where the demi-humans only have 2. Though certainly helpful, and representative of the human’s flexible nature and ability to survive adversity, this benefit hardly provides enough explanation for the dominance of this race in the game. There is 1 other key factor which gives humans an edge over their demi-human counterparts: they enjoy a broader range of class choices. Traditionally, the dominance of humans was also defined by level limits, as explained above.

A Matter of Time

The simple fact is that humans are short-lived compared to most of the other races. This imminent mortality drives them to greatness in ways that take the other races centuries to achieve. The other races simply “take their time” about such things, while humans recognize that time is not on their side in these matters, and thus work much harder, and much more quickly, to achieve their goals. Furthermore, the other races do not procreate at nearly the same rate as humans. They have significantly fewer children, and it can take several human generations to raise up the young and train them in ways that match what a human can accomplish in only a couple of decades.

These facts afford humans the advantage of “haste” in their endeavors. The level limits outlined in the original editions of the game were a way to represent the patience and sense of timelessness which the demi-human races enjoy in their growth. The limits were not meant to imply that the non-human races cannot achieve great levels of power - far from it. The limits merely defined what a demi-human can achieve on a human time scale. Since demi-humans generally adventured with humans in their midst, on a scale that measures months and years (rather than decades and centuries), these limits expressed the ratio to which these races advance alongside their human counterparts. Long after an elf or dwarf’s human companions have grown old and died, these races would continue to grow and flourish in their abilities - but this exists well outside of the context of our campaign. As stated above, our campaign imposes no level limits on demi-humans, though these limits may exist more broadly among NPCs and the cultures you may encounter. For our purposes, the characters are exceptionally skilled and touched by heroic fortunes, which allow them to progress beyond levels normally imposed upon their kind.

A Matter of Culture

The player who is uninitiated in Old School play will wonder why their demi-human cannot partake in the full array of class choices that are available to humans. Class restrictions are designed to represent the cultural differences between humans and their demi-human counterparts. For example, can you, the player, actually visualize a dwarf druid? Can you legitimately see the existence of a gnome paladin? The fact is, some classes are bound, culturally, to the human race, and represent a path of advancement that is simply foreign to other races. In order to preserve these cultural differences in the game, the demi-human races will simply not have access to some of the classes which are purely human constructs. This is not to say that the demi-humans could not pursue a profession outside of their culture, it’s just that they are extremely unlikely to do so. So much so, that in game terms it’s simply easiest to restrict them from even taking such classes.

To put this into context, try to think of some of the behaviors of other cultures in the world, and ask yourself if you would willingly adopt their ways. Would you take a vow of celibacy and take up arms as a muslim mujahadeen (paladin)? Would you throw away your family life and career to spend the next 20 years in a Himalayan temple (monk)? Well, in this regard no elf would pursue the single-minded holy crusade of a paladin, nor would any dwarf worth his forge embrace nature as a druid. Neither elf nor gnome can appreciate the singular dedication to body and spirit required to become a monk - there are simply too many other “interesting” things to explore. To a dwarf, the idea of laying down his axe in favor of learning to slap one’s opponent about the ears with his bare hands is laughable, at best. Additionally, their squat legs don’t really lend themselves to high-flying kicks. How can one really expect to defeat a dragon by punching it, or by praying to a bush for a help? How can a halfling expect to deliver a roundhouse to a human’s head? Can a hobbit really be bothered with heavy armor, mounted charges with a lance, or the strange sorcery employed by elves and humans? Wondrous, to be sure, but not the kind of behavior exhibited by a hobbit of good standing in his community.

You get the picture.

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I hope this helps, and good luck on your campaign! You're making a good choice with LL/AEC. C&C is another option you'll want to consider (though unlike many of the OSR sims, C&C is not available free).

[johnoliphant3]

Thanks a bunch for the thorough and thoughtful response. My problem, however, remains: my players are exactly the type of people whose minds go straight for the unconventional. They absolutely can imagine all those combinations you listed, and are much more inclined toward them than they are toward traditional options.

I own the C&C books, and understand your recommendation. I ran our first three sessions using that system, actually, but grew a little frustrated with the SIEGE Engine and the extraordinarily poor copyediting of the books, which have gone through quite a few printings at this point. My expectations for those types of things are ridiculous, and I would probably fail to pass my own test if I spent a couple of minutes proofreading.

[redwullf]

Thanks a bunch for the thorough and thoughtful response. My problem, however, remains: my players are exactly the type of people whose minds go straight for the unconventional. They absolutely can imagine all those combinations you listed, and are much more inclined toward them than they are toward traditional options.

I own the C&C books, and understand your recommendation. I ran our first three sessions using that system, actually, but grew a little frustrated with the SIEGE Engine and the extraordinarily poor copyediting of the books, which have gone through quite a few printings at this point. My expectations for those types of things are ridiculous, and I would probably fail to pass my own test if I spent a couple of minutes proofreading.

I'm a huge fan of C&C, but you're right about the editing - it leaves MUCH to be desired. I'm passionate about the product, however, and can find ways to look past the errors. My only exception to this is their book "Of Gods & Monsters." There's a theme in that book regarding additional powers/abilities for devout worshippers which I really enjoy. However, the "theme" is so inconsistent and devoid of description that it's frustrating. Furthermore -- and though I mean no disrespect to the author, whom I do not personally know -- the overall writing of the book is very juvenile and very poorly edited. The other rule books have gone through a few errata and reprints and are in pretty decent shape, overall, especially the player's handbook and "Monsters & Treasure."

Having said all of that, I hear what you're saying regarding your players. I cannot break my main campaign group away from Pathfinder because they love all the doodads and unlimited class/race mixing that's available to them. In my smaller LL campaign, I'm much more strict about old school class/race combinations and simply say "no" when someone asks (or has asked) for something outside the limitations.

I think my best advice is to House Rule your expectations and discuss it with the players. You and your players should build your campaign and your game world organically, working together to bring it to life. If your players can make a strong argument in favor of their unusual class/race combination, and can develop an elaborate back story to support their argument, then perhaps it's simply best to honor "Rule #1" (Have fun!) and allow it. Generally speaking, in my campaigns, I remind myself that the players are there to have fun and to role play something unusual - something outside of their "real life" - and I try to be limited in my restrictions.

In the end, however, you are the final arbiter of what goes and doesn't go in your game world. Though you certainly want your players to have fun, and to work collaboratively on the campaign, that doesn't mean you have to bend to every whim and demand. If it looks like your limitations may lead to a dissatisfied player who will "quit" (or not play in the first place), then see if you can find a compromise. Using a halfling monk as an example, I would house rule some specific limitations for his monk abilities, to take his stature into account. Perhaps a persistant -2 to attack rolls for his unarmed attacks agains creatures of medium size or larger (the fact that he can't really hit them in the head and upper body effectively reduces his effectiveness). Another option would be to lower the per-attack damage, treating them as "small" attacks vs. the "medium" attacks as listed. Finally, the halfling will have to come up with some creative ways to use "quivering palm" at 13th level, because you may rule that he or she mus be able to "reach" the upper chest of the target in order to activate this effect (must be able to apply the quivering palm over the heart of the victim, that is). In other words, if they make a strong case, allow it with conditions and explain that they are extremely rare or even unique in your game world ("Never before has the Order of the Serpent allowed a non-human to train in its ancient arts...").

I hope this helps.

[johnoliphant3]

It helps immensely. I cannot thank you enough for the amount of time and consideration you put into your responses! Do you have any recommendations for determining level limits for these unusual combinations? I have been unable to discern a pattern among the ones in the default rules.

And I suppose that brings me around to a new question, stemming from the other. Are there algorithms or something used to determine the caps, the increases in skills for thieves, the experience requirements for different classes, etc.? It appears arbitrary to my untrained eye, but I do know the original designers were a thoughtful group of gents and likely had mathematics behind their decisions.

[Eldrad]

Where forth do ye hail from?
Also there are many Classes and supplements FREE to download for LL if you take a look around this message board.

[jasmith]

For my own games, I relax the race/class restrictions. I do limit Paladins and Rangers to Human or half-human characters only, but that's strictly due to my interpretation of those classes for my setting.

As to level limits, I only impose them on multi-class characters.

If you're coming from a 3e background, the important thing to remember is that the leveling works differently. Multi-class characters ala the AEC or AD&D/OSRIC level all their classes concurrently. That's why you can roll up a really great Gish (Fighter/Magic-User) in old school games, but the 3e F/MU combo sucked!

Multi-class characters will stay fairly close level-wise to single classed ones, up until fairly high levels. By that point the level restrictions, which are in place to keep multi-class characters from becoming way over-powered, will kick in as well.

Bottom line, the world isn't going to end if you allow Gnome Monks.

I'd keep to the restrictions on multi-class characters as they are written, until you have a better feel for running the game.

[YHWH]

I'm under the impression the racial restrictions are there for flavor reasons: to keep dwarves & hobbits acting dwarvy & hobbity.

It's easier to see dwarves acting like Gimli (fighter) than acting like Kwai Chang Caine (monk), parting the red sea (cleric) or running around Assassin's Creed-ing people.

It's just a question of how you want to handle them.

[elf23]

YHWH has a good point. One effect (not sure whether it's a side-effect or an intended effect) of the traditional demi-human class limitations is that it just makes demi-humans less flexible. This in turn leads to them being less common, leading to a more human-centric game. You may or may not find this desirable.

[elf23]

And I suppose that brings me around to a new question, stemming from the other. Are there algorithms or something used to determine the caps, the increases in skills for thieves, the experience requirements for different classes, etc.? It appears arbitrary to my untrained eye, but I do know the original designers were a thoughtful group of gents and likely had mathematics behind their decisions.

I've never heard of such thought being put into it, before 3rd edition and its obsession with rationality and balance came along. It's an interesting question though. I wonder if all those things you mention really just evolved, if they were kind of "play-tested" and tweaked as a result, or if Gary just made them up one day and that was that. I sort of suspect the latter, though I've never heard reports either way. Perhaps some 70s old-timers (don't know if there are any around here) might have an idea?

Re: XP progressions, people have kind of retrospectively come up with algorithms for building classes which (with varying degrees of accuracy) allow the basic classes to be reconstructed. Can't remember any specific urls, but I've seen a couple of examples of this kind of thing online before.