Do you think fantasy requires spell casting?

[greyarea]

Generally speaking, I'd say that if the fantasy world contains magical creatures (elves, orcs, dragons, etc) it would be tough to have no magic. Perhaps no magic spell casting or wizards, but at least magical weaponry.

Fantasy settings without magic spells or wizards would work fine in a fantasy setting, even to the point of all magical items being rare (or unique of its type -- there is only one Vorpal Sword or a single Displacer Cloak in the world). Or changing the rules of magic (e.g. having "talents" as in the Xanth books or using a mana-based system where magic only works in certain areas and its strength is variable). Or only having certain races able to perform magic (the Elves or the Istari, for example) or only allowing certain types of magic (clerical spells or illusionist, um, illusions) can add to the "mystique" of magic in the world.

However, a high fantasy setting generally assumes magic exists and someone (or some thing) is able to control it. Otherwise it's just funny looking demihumans knocking about each other with various weapons.

Now if you stray out of high fantasy...

[Agrippa]

Perhaps the erstwhile mystical weapon/armorsmith or crafter can't really cast spells per se. Instead he or she forges or otherwise crafts magical materials into items by drawing forth the latent magic within the ingredients. Just because your magical artisan can't cast the invisiblity or mirror image spells dosen't mean he can't craft a cloak of invisiblity or displacement for you. Instead he might need a displace beast pelt. Does that make sense to you?

[greyarea]

Totally makes sense, Agrippa. No magical spells but magical item crafting with the proper components.

[Agrippa]

Yeah, that's right. Basically what I'm talking about is largely what TV Tropes terms Alchemy Is Magic. Along with inherent gifts, theurgy (prayer and miracle working), intellectualism mixed with ritualism, mystical power derived from intense physical training or a combination there of. Though types two through four mostly cover spell magic and can be ignored leaving alchemy and of course supernatural martial arts.

[Atomic Ray]

I like the idea of most all magic being imbued into items.

I used a like process with the magic items also being linked to the maker or the intended first user.

These personalities prefer a type, alignment, race, etc.

While it would work for a non-preferred type, to get the full effect the peg must fit the hole as it were.

The right kind of metal to create a magic alloy, the right time of the day, right time of the year, blue moon, etc. all factors to create the whole.

[Agrippa]

Of course in fantasy you get heroes like Beowulf and Ajax, supposedly mundane men capable of superhuman feats. Feats such as competeing in a long distance swimming contest while wearing chain armor and a sheathed sword. To be more honest Beowulf lost that match, because he was on the ocean floor while slaying nine giant sea monsters. That and he swam to the bottom of a pool that took nearly a day to reach. Kind of makes tearing off Grendel's arm look tame by comparison.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The question is: where does Fantasy leave off, and Science Fiction begin?

The Safehold novels by David Weber take place in technically a zero-magic world. The human race came in second in a genocidal (or would that be xenocidal?) war. The few survivors went to ground on a distant planet, and "reset" human knowledge to about 14th Century Europe, but with a world spanning Church overseeing the kingdoms, princedoms and other societies. There are dragons, great and small, wyverns, krakens and other beasties, but no goblins, orcs, etc. Only humans. No machines above wind, water or muscle.

Now enter Merlin. A cybernetic avatar, armed with duel swords, a katana and a wakisashi, with both weapons made from "modern" metals. Merlin himself can shut off his internal governors if needed, and become much faster than a normal human. His body is made of metals and alloys, and his "brain" is protected by 1cm of battle armor. He is able to deploy audio/video devices, and can access a computer with a fairly advanced AI. His goal is to protect a kingdom that drew the ire of the Church by advancing technology just a little too far, and the Grand Inquisitor of that Church.

So now Merlin has a +5 Holy Avenger, with the spells Haste, Shield (or Mage Armor), Commune, Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Sending, and any number of "spells" that make up modern technology. Is this magic to someone who doesn't understand basic radio?
Merlin is no wizard, and his powers are not "supernatural," but his enemies wouldn't know the difference.

[gentleman john]

The question is: where does Fantasy leave off, and Science Fiction begin?

<snip>

So now Merlin has a +5 Holy Avenger, with the spells Haste, Shield (or Mage Armor), Commune, Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Sending, and any number of "spells" that make up modern technology. Is this magic to someone who doesn't understand basic radio?
Merlin is no wizard, and his powers are not "supernatural," but his enemies wouldn't know the difference.

Clarke's Law - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

However, what you have here is using the available rules mechanics to describe the effects of technology. I wouldn't count that as magic, more like saying "The laser pistol acts like a Wand of Magic Missiles". Of course, the people in the setting don't know this and could describe it as magic, but that doesn't make it magic.

Going the other way, there are plenty of instances in science fiction of things that appear magical: warp drives, transporters, artificial intelligences, psionics ...

[seneschal]

I have a question for everone here at Goblinoid Games, does fantasy require spell casting? Whether in the form of rituals or shaping the caster's own mystical energy. Or do you accept settings that lack such spellslingers and ritualists but still contain supernatural elements as a form of fantasy? This doesn't automatically mean that magical and otherwise superhuman ablities don't exist for heroes and their adversaries, just that spells in and of themselves don't. Perhaps the likes of Miho or Kevin.

I would argue that that not only does fantasy not require spell casting in the D&D sense, but that some of fantasy gaming's prime inspirations don't include it. In both the Conan tales and The Chronicles of Narnia (could the outlooks of their authors possibly be more different?) spells are strictly for the Bad Guys. Barsoom is certainly fantastic enough, but like Conan, John Carter gets by with a quick blade, a quick wit, and plenty of luck. Dorothy Gale, although regarded as a witch by the Munchkins, never casts a spell as such, although she does employ single-use magical artifacts such as the Wicked Witch's cap to summon the Winged Monkeys and the Nome King's belt to send her friends home. Even in the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf the wizard uses his sword, his Charisma, and his lore knowledge much more frequently than magic powers, which are exercised only in the most dire of emergencies. No casual cantrips or magic missiles there. The Princess and the Goblin? Nope. Princess Irene (like Dorothy in Oz and Lucy in Narnia) beats the baddies with pluck, persistence, the determination to do the right thing, and an occasional artifact. Arabian Nights? Other than the occasional magic lamp or ring, nope, and then the djinn do the whammy rather than the hero. Hansel and Gretel? Jack and Beanstalk? Nope, they have to out-think the villains, not out-zap them.

The whole magic-heavy, flashy effects, buy Spell Suite v. 3.4.1 at Magi-Mart phenomenon seems to be a post-D&D thing. Harry (Potter and Dresden) and World of Warcraft have only made it worse.

[seneschal]

"Going the other way, there are plenty of instances in science fiction of things that appear magical: warp drives, transporters, artificial intelligences, psionics ..."

For instance, Planet of the Apes could easily be reinterpreted as fantasy. You've got scary goblin armies (gorilla soldiers), RuneQuest-style herdmen (regressed humans), mind-flayers (atomic mutant illusionists), mysterious ancient ruins, a stratified religious agrarian society, and a world beyond Ape City that largely remains unknown. Charlton Heston cast nary a spell (all his high-tech gear sank with the spaceship). Unfortunately, he also lacked Judy Garland's charm.