Bows versus Black Powder?

For discussion of the new official Pacesetter horror game!

Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby mystaros » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:04 am

Okay, here's one thing I do not understand...

A black-powder gun (musket) can be loaded faster than a bow?

According to the rules, it takes a Specialist with Bow 20 seconds (!) to draw, nock, and loose an arrow. It takes a Specialist with Musket merely 15 seconds to load powder, paper, and shot and tamp and shoot a musket... and a Master can do so in merely 5 seconds, half as long as it takes a Master of the Bow to draw, nock, and loose an arrow...

Hmmm... I'm seeing a house rule.

And the crossbow rules do not take into account modern crossbows (which are much faster than ancient crossbows... just ask Daryl Dixon)...
User avatar
mystaros
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:02 pm
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby seneschal » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:08 pm

I don't know about Cryptworld's rules. But my research for other game systems indicated that it took an experienced, well-drilled musketeer about 30 seconds to load and fire his black powder weapon. Fifteen or even five seconds? You gotta be kidding. There was a reason infantrymen were arranged in rows, the rear one loading while the front one fired a volley. Also, better have your cutlass and dagger handy. Once you get off your one shot, even if it was a good one, you may not have time to reload in the face of an enemy charge. And that's when you're dealing with normal humans, much less supernatural critters.
seneschal
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:26 pm

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby sniderman » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:25 pm

seneschal wrote:I don't know about Cryptworld's rules. But my research for other game systems indicated that it took an experienced, well-drilled musketeer about 30 seconds to load and fire his black powder weapon. Fifteen or even five seconds? You gotta be kidding. There was a reason infantrymen were arranged in rows, the rear one loading while the front one fired a volley. Also, better have your cutlass and dagger handy. Once you get off your one shot, even if it was a good one, you may not have time to reload in the face of an enemy charge. And that's when you're dealing with normal humans, much less supernatural critters.


If I may, my father shoots black powder weapons professionally (competitions, awards, speed loading/shooting, etc.). It is very possible to load a black powder weapon in 10 or even 5 seconds. Usually, the firer has pre-created "cartridges" ahead of time. It's a paper cylinder, closed at one end. You fill it with pre-measured powder, then place a musket ball in the end, held in place with wax. To load, you tear the end off containing the powder, dump it in, seat the paper/ball, and ram it home. Pop on a cap, and fire. (The paper acts as the wadding, and the wax evaporates upon firing.) Bring down your weapon, tear, dump, seat, ram, cap, fire. I've seen him fire a long rifle 4-5 times in 30 seconds with this method.
Image
User avatar
sniderman
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:42 am
Location: Frozen Northern Ohio

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby daddystabz » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:39 am

I just noticed....there are no weapons listed in this game....not even an equipment chapter!
daddystabz
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby BigJackBrass » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:38 am

daddystabz wrote:I just noticed....there are no weapons listed in this game....not even an equipment chapter!

The weapons are on a table in chapter 5. Pacesetter games generally only distinguish weapons by range and ammo, since they all do similar damage. Were you looking for more of a "shopping list" of prices and such?
User avatar
BigJackBrass
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:08 pm
Location: Manchester, alas.

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby daddystabz » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:48 am

More like different damage potentials. One of my potential players for an online campaign is put off by there being no difference at all in weapons in terms of inherent damage.

BigJackBrass wrote:
daddystabz wrote:I just noticed....there are no weapons listed in this game....not even an equipment chapter!

The weapons are on a table in chapter 5. Pacesetter games generally only distinguish weapons by range and ammo, since they all do similar damage. Were you looking for more of a "shopping list" of prices and such?
daddystabz
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby sniderman » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:07 am

One of my potential players for an online campaign is put off by there being no difference at all in weapons in terms of inherent damage.


Damage is determined by the PC's skill with that weapon and the roll he makes. If you're highly skilled, it's assumed you've trained with that weapon and you know where to hit someone, how to hit someone, to do the most damage you can with that weapon. You can hit the vital points, maximizing the injury. It doesn't depend on whether you have a knife, a Glock, or a shotgun. The better you are, the better you'll do.

Let's say you have a three guys, all with the Pistol skill and armed with a standard sidearm. All have a base DEX 40%, but one is a Specialist (+15%); one is an Expert (+30%); and one is a Master (+55%).

They all shoot at the same target, and they all roll a 50. Defender rolls a 5.

The Specialist with his 55% hits, but only barely with a 5% difference. On Defense column 5, he scores a Light result (grazed him), and the defender takes 2-20 points and 2 wounds.

The Expert with his 70% also hits with a 20% difference. On Defense column 5, he scores a Moderate result (bullet went through a limb), and the defender takes 4-40 points and 3 wounds.

And the Master with his 95% hits with a crushing 45% difference. On Defense column 5, he also scores a Moderate result, and the defender takes 4-40 points and 3 wounds. But the defender is also knocked back 5 feet and potentially losing anything in his hands.

And the guy who's never shot a Pistol in his life? He uses Unskilled Melee. Let's say, for easy math, that his USM is base 40%. He gets no bonuses. He rolled the same 50. And he missed.

So I don't care if that pistol is a flintlock pistol, a Saturday Night Special, a .45, or whatever. A short-range bullet is a short-range bullet. Doesn't matter what caliber it is if it went into your heart, eh? But YOUR SKILL with that pistol determines what you do with it.

Put this way: Most RPGs have a hit/miss system. If you need a 15 to hit and you rolled a 15, 17, or 19, you hit. Your roll has no bearing on the degree of success. Pass/fail. So the guy with a 2d6 weapon will do the same damage regardless of his To Hit die roll. With the Pacesetter system, that initial To Hit roll has EVERYTHING to do with the damage you inflict. It determines how WELL you hit. Making your roll by 40 gives you a MUCH better result than making it by 5. And the damage you do directly equates to that.

So there you have it. Give this to your online player. If he's still "put off", maybe he'd be happier with Twilight 2000 or something. They have several weapons manuals chock full of stats he may like.

;)
Image
User avatar
sniderman
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:42 am
Location: Frozen Northern Ohio

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby seneschal » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:12 pm

sniderman wrote:
seneschal wrote:I don't know about Cryptworld's rules. But my research for other game systems indicated that it took an experienced, well-drilled musketeer about 30 seconds to load and fire his black powder weapon. Fifteen or even five seconds? You gotta be kidding. There was a reason infantrymen were arranged in rows, the rear one loading while the front one fired a volley. Also, better have your cutlass and dagger handy. Once you get off your one shot, even if it was a good one, you may not have time to reload in the face of an enemy charge. And that's when you're dealing with normal humans, much less supernatural critters.


If I may, my father shoots black powder weapons professionally (competitions, awards, speed loading/shooting, etc.). It is very possible to load a black powder weapon in 10 or even 5 seconds. Usually, the firer has pre-created "cartridges" ahead of time. It's a paper cylinder, closed at one end. You fill it with pre-measured powder, then place a musket ball in the end, held in place with wax. To load, you tear the end off containing the powder, dump it in, seat the paper/ball, and ram it home. Pop on a cap, and fire. (The paper acts as the wadding, and the wax evaporates upon firing.) Bring down your weapon, tear, dump, seat, ram, cap, fire. I've seen him fire a long rifle 4-5 times in 30 seconds with this method.


I bow to you and your Dad's superior knowledge and experience. :oops:

But can he pull it off in a Stygian Appalachian forest at 3 a.m. after losing track of his companions while an undertermined number of swift and hungry things come rushing through the underbrush? :shock: :)

Re: later questions ... so the more skilled a character is with a particular weapon, the more damage he does with it? Makes sense. But it means newbies and generalists are in trouble if a fight breaks out, and so is the expert if he loses his favorite weapon and has to improvise.
seneschal
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:26 pm

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby sniderman » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:38 pm

seneschal wrote:I bow to you and your Dad's superior knowledge and experience. :oops:


I didn't even know such things existed until I saw him in action, honestly. Those "shells" were the forerunner of the bullet/shotgun shell we use today though. But you have to keep them completely dry and they're kind of fragile. But if you know what you're doing, you can be quick-fast.

But can he pull it off in a Stygian Appalachian forest at 3 a.m. after losing track of his companions while an undertermined number of swift and hungry things come rushing through the underbrush? :shock: :)


Dunno. I'll ask. ;)

Re: later questions ... so the more skilled a character is with a particular weapon, the more damage he does with it? Makes sense. But it means newbies and generalists are in trouble if a fight breaks out, and so is the expert if he loses his favorite weapon and has to improvise.


The more skilled he is with a particular CLASS of weapon, yes, the more damage he can do with it. And, yes, if you have to improvise, that's what Unskilled Melee is for. (Just because you don't have a combat skill, doesn't mean you can't TRY to use that weapon!)

In Those Other Games, if you have the weapon in-hand, you can do damage if you hit with it. ("Hey, I found this cutlass! Stabby-stabby! 2d6 damage!") With the Pacesetter system, you're not automatically proficient with that cutlass, or those nun-chucks, or that Glock, etc. If someone has never fired a gun in their life, would they know how to load it? Cock it? Aim well? So it makes sense that if you've never trained with one, you don't get the same bonuses as someone who has.
Image
User avatar
sniderman
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:42 am
Location: Frozen Northern Ohio

Re: Bows versus Black Powder?

Postby Claybor » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:40 am

So there you have it. Give this to your online player. If he's still "put off", maybe he'd be happier with Twilight 2000 or something. They have several weapons manuals chock full of stats he may like.


Your example above is all well and good with all 3 of the shooters using pistols, but it makes little sense when you take 2 shooters with equal skill and one using a small caliber pistol while the other is using a large caliber rifle. To imply that they do equal damage does make things a bit wonky.

Yes it's just a role playing game and you can easily just ignore the issue, but some people like things to seem more 'realistic'? ( I want to emphasize 'seem' as no game can really simulate reality.)

Still, all games have their little issues. This one does look like it could be fun for a short term game, although I am not too sure how it would hold up long term?

P.S. I very much like the action table.
Claybor
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:30 am

Next

Return to CRYPTWORLD

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest