Old School Superheroes

[Atomic Ray]

Why in the mutant future section...seems to fit with mutations/powers.

The idea is three fold...

support the old school rules movement and specifically Gobilnoid Games efforts

bring the system into another genre...we have fantasy, post apoc, and trek...I offer that superheroes is the next logical consideration

focus the ideal of levels, character building slowly, and in general apply the LL character development process to superheroes...which usually start high powered


There are so many aspects to the theme and the genre...so I thought perhaps we could pick one aspect and pick it apart, build it up, and then move on.

Classes and levels.

The big difference between the majority of superhero games is that most of them the character starts off pretty close to peak if not right on...in LL reference most superhero systems would start characters out as 20th level rather than 1st.

Now everyone knows that 1st level can blow hot air...but the ideal of significant growth through game play rather than just pencil whipping has a value...at least in my eyes.

In the same context, using LL as a reference point, let us say that a 1st level superhero would have high level magic items and access to higher spells than their level would normally provide...but the uses may be limited or the effects may be reduced...until more levels are gained.

So with that in mind let us consider a couple of the particular superhero types that everyone can appreciate and get behind...those that easily compare to the LL standard for instance...

Magical...bringing the D&D roots home...those that sling magic, use wands, read from spell books...and those with magic items

This broad stroke would include any hero that uses magic or magical items...Dr Fate through Thor.

Using spells or magic focus objects...this is the easiest to consider, speaking in terms of rules...spells directly from the spells list...maybe say a spell caster could weave a number of spells equal to INT score and that any spell used above the current level would cost the differential in uses...example a 1st level spell caster "Mordru the Magician" has an INT of 17 and desires to cast a 4th level spell...it would cost 4 uses, leaving 13 for the 24hr period.

"Tormund son of Asgard" does not cast spells but has magical aspects imprinted onto his spear and magic helmet...or perhaps a hammer instead...flight, call lightning, etc.

Those heroes who are magical in nature would fall into another group...the next easiest to cross over...

Supernatural...rather than using magic these types are of an otherworldly nature...werewolves, Lovecraftian, angels, demons, undead, etc.

The character is not human or shares heritage with non-human aspects...most of these types would "be" magical/otherworldly rather than wielding magic, spells, items...though they could in some aspect...Hellboy would fall into this type.

Now to step beyond the familiar for the LL system, but not that far...

Agent...gaining advantage through training, special conditioning, resources, etc. the character is in top level of human standard mind/body/spirit...this is where the Batman, Hawkeye, Daredevil, and others would fall into.

Before going any further with the list...better to consider the foundation of the character...the core that grants base direction...call it class aspect for now...

Trained...more focused on skills, gains bonuses with skill use

Equipped...well supported with money and or resources, able to pull funds and favors from contacts

Talented...naturals, gifted with most things, gains significant bonuses to level advancement

Motivated...driven by a focus that allows for training, skill advancement, and information gathering while most sleep/recover


So an Agent considered from each of these...

Agent/Trained...Nick Fury...best that the government can produce...all around good skills but no specific focus for application or tools

Agent/Equipped...Hawkeye...trained to be an assassin but uses the training along with special effect arrows to work around killing/maiming

Agent/Talented...Daredevil...something unique allows an extra element to the training, but usually has an accompanying weakness

Agent/Motivated...Nightwing...driven by duty in this case, focused on stopping evil even at the cost of his body able to push beyond limits by Will alone

Agents would gain access to the ideals of the thief and ranger in context not exact word for word...using lock picking, tracking, evidence perception, climb walls, set/remove traps, etc.

That sort of thing.

Each of the basic and advanced LL type classes could be explored...

clerics gaining strength and ability through faith and will

paladins gaining powers and focus through faith and cha

fighters representing the brawlers...str, con, and dex

etc.

*****

And while multi-class would be possible, allowing variety at an early level the progression would be reduced in measure...choose three classes at 1st level and only one level could advance at a time, all must be equal so no advancing 2 levels then coming back 1:1:1 then 2:2:2, and finally multi class would have no experience bonuses but would instead require an extra 10% per class...so a triple classed character at first level would have no experience bonuses regardless of stats and would need +20% per level for each class...example: agent 1st-2nd 2000exp...this character would need 2400exp for 2nd level.

Anyway...thoughts? ideas? considerations?

[Atomic Ray]

Before it comes up...hit points would be higher than comparative other games such as LL...so no 1 hit die to start the game.

The basic working idea is to have a set number for hit points at level one...say class...say Agent 12hp...+ any Con bonus...same example at 2nd level would be 6hp + any Con.

So in quick order a decent superhero level of taking a hit would come into light...a 3rd level average Agent super type would have 24hp+Con bonuses...so could be shot and stabbed and will still keep going, for awhile

A Brute/Brick type might start with 20hp + Con bonus, gaining 10hp at level advancement...3rd level...40hp+Con bonuses...so could be hit by a truck and most like still get back up and be mad.

This could go another direction...but I would rather see potential for growth...not start off as a demi-god and then work your way into full godhood...better to start off as a new hero and work your way into local icon IMO

[gentleman john]

A brief note before bedtime.

On the subject of levels, I prefer the approach taken by Mutants & Masterminds and Mystery Men. In both these games, levels are more a measure of character power than achievement. Indeed, in Mystery Men the XP needed to reach a level directly translates into the XP available to purchase powers. Thus, you can play at any level of power.

Of course, this leads to rather static characters - but superheroes rarely seem to undergo the gradual changes of RPG characters. In genre, they tend to change their power levels dramatically as new writers come on.

Hideouts & Hoodlums takes an approach similar to the one you are putting forward, but it is more slanted towards the pulp end of the genre, where powers were even less fixed and tended to be made up as the plot required.

As for classes, you only need them to distinguish between different types of PC. If you want to limit the powers of the characters by class, then that is a possibility. However, my experience with Heroes Unlimited was that this decision can be too restrictive and result in some very strange - and arbitrary - design choices. In an agent-level game, the need for classes may be obvious. In a SHRPG, the possibilities are far too wild to contain in classes.

[Agrippa]

I'm up for this, of course you already know that Atomic Ray. I'm not exactly thrilled by the multi-classing system you mentioned, but we can talk about that later. Right now I'm thinking more about what powers these heroes should have. Now I was thinking about drawing inspiartion from some of the lower Essence (Essence 1-4) Charms from Exalted as models for super powers and talents. Here are some lists just from the Solars.

awareness
archery
craft
occult minus Sorcery
melee
thrown
stealth
athletics
resistance
presence
performance
integrity
investigation
medicine
lore
survival
war

The higher Essence Charms would be too powerful to use as inspirations for this project, but most of the lower powered ones could be made to fit. Not all of them would fit all character classes or class aspects, not even Charms of the same type, but that's fine.

[Atomic Ray]

Good points.

But I must offer that the variety of superhero range is due more to the noted exchange of writers and long run of the comics than the original character being so unique that it can not fit within a class.

There are plenty of games that allow the player to tweak every aspect of the character, Champions is a fine example.

I am a big fan of 4th ed Champions.

But in this particular case...the idea is to use what we have.

The way you the player play the character is where the fine line is drawn...otherwise every single thief is defined only by their level skills and every magic-user by their level spells and uses.

The same can be applied here with superheroes.

*****

I like those aspect charm considerations...they offer a wealth of detail to finish the character...good stuff.
I 100% understand what you are saying...more options and flexibility offers what most modern RPGs offer...I am saying let us take a step back...tone it down as it were...Batman and Green Arrow are not the same type but then again they are...non-powered adventurers...both with gimmick devices (power foci), highly trained in martial skills, high level athletes...so in my context of thinking they could both be Agents.

Agents...training, skills, and ability...use tools, resources, and tactics

So for the moment, let us see if we can make this work...then we will have another old school game option!

Early V&V was quite simple...usually one power and your stats...your personal stats or close to the same.

It was great fun.

Now compared to "make a god" superhero game, it does seem pale...most super players prefer Icons to street sweepers...dealing with global threats instead of neighborhood/city threats...I like the street sweepers myself.

But I prefer to play the character rather than play the power.

[Atomic Ray]

I'm up for this, of course you already know that Atomic Ray. I'm not exactly thrilled by the multi-classing system you mentioned, but we can talk about that later

The multi-class is not for me...it is for those players who need more...there are more of them than us.

So having the option is what that would be, not the norm.

A mutli-class as I noted it will advance very slowly...I did basic numbers and if looking at the experience of an average 4th level single class then the triple class would be a 2:2:1...so quickly the single class would be leaps and bounds above the multi...but again, I am with you.

Single focus class is more old school and more appropriate in my book

[Agrippa]

I was thinking more along these lines. An agent would be focused in stealth, athletics and subterfuge plus any two out of melee combat, leadership, investigation and ranged weapons (projectiles or thrown). In addition to his base class features an agent would get powers or talents as part of his class tied to these choices. So you could have an agent with great skill at ranged weaponry and able to shoot down multiple moving targets with a single shot up to his line of sight. He can also jump two to five times the distance a normal human with his pyhsique could and almost instantly solve problems by brief examination.

[Atomic Ray]

That sounds sexy to me

[Agrippa]

That sounds sexy to me

Yes it is, though I forgot the bit about the agent's nigh-supernatural stealth and legendary ledgermain lock-picking that allows him to pick pockets with a touch, pilfer items out in the open without notice and perfectly disguise himself as another.

[Atomic Ray]

That sounds sexy to me

Yes it is, though I forgot the bit about the agent's nigh-supernatural stealth and legendary legerdemain lock-picking that allows him to pick pockets with a touch, pilfer items out in the open without notice and perfectly disguise himself as another.

Sounds good to me...like the Avenger



http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/a/avenger2.htm