David, any more stuff?

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David, any more stuff?

Postby Skathros » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:59 pm

Hi David.

First off, great having you here! My gaming group and I are really enjoying WW and you can't imagin the blast we're having with the game. Thanks.

After reading the boards and seeing some of your additions/clarifications/errata for the game, this hungry WW fan was wondering...do you have more? I'm well aware that 30 years is a long time but, if there's anything that pops up in you head from the old days (extra rules, additions, errata), and if it isn't a drain on your time, would you be willing to post it? It would be really neat for this small fanbase (which will grow, if I have anything to say about it ;)) what changes were made to the game through game-play by the author and original group.

Oh, on a totally unrelated not...i'm a font junkie and was wondering what font was used for the body/text. I'm trying to place the capital "G" but can't find an equivalent.
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Spectral Hand » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:02 am

Hi Skathros,

30 years is indeed a long time, in this case primarily because the version of Wizards' World I have played most recently is so different from the version published in the book. The trick of finding additional material is thus more a matter of whether things are backwards compatible than whether they exist at all.

With that in mind, I can give you a rough idea about the kinds of things that have been added over the years:
(1) We have had to create lots of additional monsters, of course (the monsters in the book run out pretty quickly unless you want to fight the same thing every session). I might have hardcopies of them somewhere, and I plan to look for them at some point. If I do have them, they should be pretty compatible with original WW rules and I'll be happy to share what I find subject to my typing limitations.

(2) Same with spells. The way we actually played spell research was basically "once you agree on a spell level with the GM, you can purchase the spell next time you have enough spell learning points to afford it". That sort of "system" unsurprisingly led to a lot of players developing custom spells. I think I've got about 50 pages of them in a Word file somewhere. We never changed the core spell system, so everything should be compatible. In addition to the custom spells, we focused more on balance as the game developed, and as a result a lot of spells became more standardized. For example -- Paralysis I: This spell renders a single opponent incapable of taking actions. Saving Throw: Attribute/NE (player must justify the attribute based on the nature of the spell's effects when purchased, and the spell must be bought separately for each different attribute targeted). Example: My Paralysis spell locks the target's mind in a maze and it is stuck there until it figures its way out (INT/NE); Or my Paralysis spell creates a giant paper bag that envelops the target until it is able to physically break free (STR/NE).

(3) We created a system for spontaneous casters, and converted Vampires to fit with this (we learned that Vampires are disturbingly weak at higher levels as written). Priests (we called them Heralds) or any kind of "natural magic" creatures (fey, etc.) would use this system, which basically has three components: (1) all spells must be selected according to an appropriate them as agreed upon by the player and GM, (2) all spells must be learned at -20% spell failure chance or better (that's "minus 20"), and (3) the PC can cast known spells whenever he/she wants (i.e., no spell points).

(4) We altered the experience system a lot over the years. The main issue we found was that spellcasters outstrip non-casters even at moderate levels (approx. level 6 and up). After some experimentation, we ended up switching to a flat 10,000 xp/level system to make the benefits provided by the classes more balanced. I should go into more detail on this at some point, but I think it's too much info to stuff into this post.

Overall, I probably have less written material than you would expect, because a lot of "changes" were negotiated with the players in a particular campaign and were thus very much character-specific.

That's a lot of stuff for now. If you have questions about particular things, I'll do my best to answer. This thread seems like a good place to post anything I might find, although it will probably be a while before that happens because I'm currently not in the same location as my WW notes.

PS: Sorry, I don't know about the font. I like it too, but that's pure luck as I wasn't consulted about it when the book was printed.
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Spectral Hand » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:03 am

PPS: Thanks for the welcome! I got so engrossed in answering the game questions I forgot about that. :)
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Skathros » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:30 pm

Sorry for the long wait in replying, you know...work, family, more work...

Spectral Hand wrote:30 years is indeed a long time, in this case primarily because the version of Wizards' World I have played most recently is so different from the version published in the book. The trick of finding additional material is thus more a matter of whether things are backwards compatible than whether they exist at all.


I had no idea the game was still "on" (even if changed, rules-wise). That's really cool to hear!

With that in mind, I can give you a rough idea about the kinds of things that have been added over the years:
(1) We have had to create lots of additional monsters, of course (the monsters in the book run out pretty quickly unless you want to fight the same thing every session). I might have hardcopies of them somewhere, and I plan to look for them at some point. If I do have them, they should be pretty compatible with original WW rules and I'll be happy to share what I find subject to my typing limitations.


Whenever you have the time (or inclination), I'd really love to see them. There are a few critters in the core rules that seem to be setting specific (or at least hint at being part of a defined world/setting). I'd love to hear about these. One thing that had me do a double-take was the goblins. A real departure from the standard low level/canon-fodder type goblins D&Ders are used to. Also, one thing my players are dying to know...who/what are/is the Earth Lord?

Do you have a setting in which you run (or ran) WW?

(2) Same with spells. The way we actually played spell research was basically "once you agree on a spell level with the GM, you can purchase the spell next time you have enough spell learning points to afford it". That sort of "system" unsurprisingly led to a lot of players developing custom spells. I think I've got about 50 pages of them in a Word file somewhere. We never changed the core spell system, so everything should be compatible. In addition to the custom spells, we focused more on balance as the game developed, and as a result a lot of spells became more standardized. For example -- Paralysis I: This spell renders a single opponent incapable of taking actions. Saving Throw: Attribute/NE (player must justify the attribute based on the nature of the spell's effects when purchased, and the spell must be bought separately for each different attribute targeted). Example: My Paralysis spell locks the target's mind in a maze and it is stuck there until it figures its way out (INT/NE); Or my Paralysis spell creates a giant paper bag that envelops the target until it is able to physically break free (STR/NE).


50 pages of spells?!?! Oh, that would indeed be sweet! I'm glad to hear the core spell system never changed because it's one of the things that my players love over its inspiration game. Did you add any new types of magic other than those listed in the book. I had fun adding "temporal" spell types for one of my players (which will soon appear on my WW specific site...once it goes live). Curiouse if you had thought up any other magic types.

Also, many of the spells seem/are derived from it AD&D roots. I'm not at home at the moment, so i have neither my AD&D books nor my WW book with me, but i was wondering if spells "borrowed" from AD&D are set at the same level in WW? If not, how did you set the level? Also, i cant seem to find any reference to what level spells a wizard is limited to lerning. Could a 1st level wizard learn a second level spell?

(3) We created a system for spontaneous casters, and converted Vampires to fit with this (we learned that Vampires are disturbingly weak at higher levels as written). Priests (we called them Heralds) or any kind of "natural magic" creatures (fey, etc.) would use this system, which basically has three components: (1) all spells must be selected according to an appropriate them as agreed upon by the player and GM, (2) all spells must be learned at -20% spell failure chance or better (that's "minus 20"), and (3) the PC can cast known spells whenever he/she wants (i.e., no spell points).


I would really, REALLY love to see a write-up of your Heralds and know more on spontaneouse casting. Are you saying a spontaneouse spell-caster can sling spells all day long without expending MP?

(4) We altered the experience system a lot over the years. The main issue we found was that spellcasters outstrip non-casters even at moderate levels (approx. level 6 and up). After some experimentation, we ended up switching to a flat 10,000 xp/level system to make the benefits provided by the classes more balanced. I should go into more detail on this at some point, but I think it's too much info to stuff into this post.


The XP thing is what I come back to the most. Our game is still on the low (very low) level side of things character-level-wise, so we havent really been confronted with the issue (plus, none of my players have yet expressed a desire to take on an extra profession). Is the XP penalty for taking an extra proffession insuficient? Just to be sure I understand your suggested fix to this, are you suggesting that all professions will "level up" for each 10,000XP they gain?

Thanks, David, for taking the time to reply as you have! Makes this fan happy!
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Spectral Hand » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:53 pm

I totally get the work and family thing.

There's a lot to answer in this message, so I'll do it in pieces over the next few days. I don't know how to include your text in my replies, so please bear with me on that.

It's been about 8-10 years since the last Wizards' World (WW) game in our group. We played a ton from the release of the game (1983) until 1994, when I moved abroad for several years. I didn't find a gaming group until I moved back to the US, and WW was one of several systems we played over the years. The interest on this forum has actually gotten me thinking about a new WW home campaign, but one of our existing ones will have to finish first.

*Monsters and settings
Finding the hardcopies of the monsters is the more difficult job (I know where my Word file with spells is), but I hope to get to that within the next few months. We have played in a variety of campaign settings, none of which were probably fleshed out enough to really deserve the "campaign setting" label. World-building is not one of my strengths as a GM, unfortunately. Probably the longest WW campaign we had was actually a mix of modern Earth and portals to a Swords&Sorcery alternate world. We played ourselves as characters. This used the original WW rules, and I think my character had about 9 classes before we were done. We played pretty close to the published rules in this campaign, so yeah I definitely think multi-classing is worth it. Actually the Earth Lord is kind of an inside joke. We were tinkering with GM-free game design for a while (everyone in the group preferred playing to GMing), and we had a fairly extensive mini-campaign in which the Earth Lord (named Zgum, yeah, "Zgum of the Earth") featured prominently.

*Spells
I'll have to figure out how to post the spells here at some point, assuming I'm allowed to do that. We didn't add additional types of magic; we would probably classify all or most of your Temporal spells as Enchantment. We actually tinkered with a completely different spell system for a while that involved building blocks (e.g., Mind, Body, Object; Transformation, Summoning, Control), but we reverted back to the original system because we liked it better. A lot of the spells are similar to AD&D spells, primarily because AD&D was the game of choice for our gaming group prior to WW. I can't remember differences in specific spells, but I know that we did use different spell levels compared to AD&D fairly often. We were more interested in game effect than the actual power involved, and that influenced our level assignments a lot. For example, it's really "powerful" to be able to summon an obedient living creature out of nothing, but if the creature is ineffectual then that shouldn't be a high level spell.

There is no level limit on what spells Wizards can learn. It's all about the spell learning points (SLPs). If you have enough SLPs, and you want to spend them all in one place, it is quite possible to have low level casters throwing around high level spells. That's one of the things I really like about the SLP system. The last WW campaign I played, two of us chose to play Vampire characters (using modified rules in which Vampires were predominantly spellcasters with some modifications, but I'll get to spontaneous casting later). The other player went with the "I have one awesome spell" approach and basically dedicated 2/3 of his experience points (converted to SLP) into continuously boosting his Paralysis spell. Across the course of the campaign, he undoubtedly had the greatest impact on Team Monster of any PC, but there were times when he was completely shut down (i.e., monsters who were immune to paralysis). My character went with the "I'm a magical creature and do pretty much everything by magic" route and took a ton of low level spells. I almost always knew the best spell for any given situation (in or out of combat), but I didn't have any nukes to toss out during major combats.
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Skathros » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:22 pm

I'm very much enjoying your posts on this thread, David. I really hope you keep on posting more (as time permits).

Zgum of the Earth...that one made me chuckle :lol:

(3) We created a system for spontaneous casters, and converted Vampires to fit with this (we learned that Vampires are disturbingly weak at higher levels as written). Priests (we called them Heralds) or any kind of "natural magic" creatures (fey, etc.) would use this system, which basically has three components: (1) all spells must be selected according to an appropriate them as agreed upon by the player and GM, (2) all spells must be learned at -20% spell failure chance or better (that's "minus 20"), and (3) the PC can cast known spells whenever he/she wants (i.e., no spell points).


(using modified rules in which Vampires were predominantly spellcasters with some modifications, but I'll get to spontaneous casting later)


Spontaneous casters? Heralds/Priests? This is just way to interesting for me to pass up asking about!
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Spectral Hand » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:21 pm

*Spontaneous casting
Before I talk mechanics, I want to talk a bit about theory.

In the original WW rules, we followed the traditional path of requiring Wizards to rest to regain Spell Points (SP). It didn’t take long for us to change our position on that. We decided that “mana” (or whatever you like to call the stuff that is used to power spells) is ambient in the world. However, that mana isn’t dense enough for Wizards to cast spells, so casters like Wizards draw a personal mana bubble to themselves over time. We envisioned that process as similar to magnetism, and thus changed the SP recovery rules so that Wizards regain SP regardless of what they are doing (assuming the GM doesn’t throw them into a dead magic zone, of course). When a Wizard casts a spell, he essentially uses his spell incantation to convert some of his personal mana into a particular type of spell energy (e.g., a bolt of lightning aimed at his enemies).

After consulting my old WW notes, I realized that this theory is the basis for two types of casting that could be called spontaneous.

The first type is relatively simple and already available to Wizards – if you know a spell really well (i.e., minus 20 or lower spell failure chance), you can start to take shortcuts when you cast it. Under these conditions, Wizards don’t necessarily need to verbalize the spell and casting time is accelerated. It isn’t hard to imagine the possibility that some types of spellcaster can inherently apply similar shortcuts when they use magic. Our first spontaneous caster did something like this. They learned spells exactly the same as Wizards (SLP, chance of failure), and when they cast a spell it took the normal amount of time but didn’t require anything beyond concentration (i.e., no fancy words or hand-waving). If I were running Psionics, this is probably how I would handle that.

The second type of spontaneous caster is quite a bit different. This type of caster is able to tap the ambient mana in the world as part of their spellcasting process. This is a great ability, because it essentially means you can cast spells as often as you like (i.e., no worries about SP). To offset that advantage, we decided that this type of caster should be required to pay the cost of learning a spell very well before being able to cast the spell at all. Thus, we added the requirement that spells must be learned at a minus 20% spell failure chance or better for this type of caster. The end result is a much smaller spell repertoire (for example, 5.6 times as many spells can be bought at 15% spell failure compared to -20% spell failure) that can be cast an unlimited number of times.

More on experience point changes next time, which hopefully won't be as delayed as this one was. :D
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Skathros » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:45 am

I love it David. Really cool. I guess this is how your Heralds work? Do you have Heralds/Clerics written up some where? I'd really love to include Heralds and spontaneous casting in issue 1 of Wizards' Lore if you and Dan dont mind.
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Spectral Hand » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:43 am

I checked my files, and the only write-up I could find for Heralds was even shorter than what I posted here. The only missing info from my previous post is that Heralds should use the Wizard experience table and that they get 1 LP/level.

We never did it, but I think it would work fine to substitute Herald style casting for Wizard casting in the Black Knight and White Knight classes as well.

Very nice start to your website. I have no problem with you including Heralds/spontaneous casting there if Dan doesn't mind.
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Re: David, any more stuff?

Postby Goblinoid Games » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:34 pm

No problem, feel free to post your material!
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