At what point does the M-U become overpowered?

[Irda Ranger]

IME a well-played M-U spent a lot of time and energy trying to out-think the opposition, so that he could put his spells to the best use without exposing himself to more risk than was absolutely necessary.

Right. I didn't mean to imply that every M-U character had every item in the book they wanted; just that any player who managed to level an M-U to 10th level or higher has had a lot of time and resources devoted to considering what the key risks are and mitigating them to the greatest extent possible. The basic weaknesses are bad AC, bad HP, and certain bad Saves; and the solutions to all of those are well tested and available to the creative players who work on them.

The point of D&D is fun, after all, and getting "Stuff" is fun.

Personally, I've found that some "stuff" opens up fun options, but in general the more stuff you get / the less you work for it, the less significant and therefore fun that stuff is.

Personally, I'm with you on that. I'd rather have one named sword strongly associated with character (e.g., Excalibur) than ten swords to choose from. But my players have a more Final Fantasy "collectors" mindset. They just want to have "all the stuff", to "clear the level", etc. just for sake of completism. They don't create a "magic item economy" though because they never sell anything. I swear, if there was a Hoarders episode for D&D players they'd be on it.

[Brad]

They don't create a "magic item economy" though because they never sell anything. I swear, if there was a Hoarders episode for D&D players they'd be on it.

This brings up a question I've always wondered about...is there any point at which a campaign transitions from "magic is scarce" to "magic shops on every corner" due to the player's actions? It seems like the implication is that the PCs live in a world where magic really isn't that pervasive. I suppose, of course, this depends on how you run your games, but I don't like the notion of magic shops selling wands and swords or whatever. But eventually, the PCs are going to want to sell some stuff they found. How do you handle that? In most of the games I run, it's nearly always the case that I have to make some concessions, even though I don't want to. To tie this in with the thread's purpose, with the possibility of some really high level magic-users in a game, unless the world is PC-centric, limiting magic items is harder than it looks.

[Irda Ranger]

This brings up a question I've always wondered about...is there any point at which a campaign transitions from "magic is scarce" to "magic shops on every corner" due to the player's actions?

Not necessarily. Most of my games take a more barter-economy approach to magic items. There's no "market" for them, because most people can't agree on a price for something as illiquid and rare as a magic sword.

Also, we're used to living in a world with a ton of cash in various Swiss bank accounts, so the idea of Da Vinci paintings selling for $100 million doesn't strike us as odd. But for most of history that sort of money just wasn't lying around. Who in D&D-world would have the kind of liquid assets necessary to buy and sell vorpal weapons, or even scrolls and more powerful potions? Maybe an Emperor or Pope would, but certainly not a merchant on the corner of Beaker and Tisdale.

In my world there's something of a market for low-level spell casting (Cure Light Wounds, Detect Magic, etc.) and sometimes the very least of magical items (a scroll of Magic Missile, a minor Healing Potion, a Continual Lamp, etc.), but that's it. Instead Churches, Wizard Guilds, and Kings (many of these folks former adventurers) hoard magic items that come into their possession, and occasionally either lend them out to worthy adventurers or trade item-for-item. But the idea of have a little paper price tag of 20,000 gp hanging from the hilt of a +2 Flametongue is just silly.

The rare exception to this is where a desperate thief may have gotten his hands on a magic item and it looking to off-load it for a quick buck. Anyone who comes across a rogue trying to sell a Staff of the Magi though ought to be careful - either it's a fake, or the real owner is probably looking for it and not to be trifled with.

[Dyson Logos]

In fact, on the discussion of persons and groups of power collecting items, what they offer isn't cash. Powerful groups offer power. They will offer to "owe you one" for that magic item. Sometimes it will be the LOAN of one of their magic items, or some political clout, or information, transportation, or whatever else they can provide... but the reality is that these persons of power (emperors, churches and so on) generally don't stock a hefty treasury, they spend their money acquiring and maintaining power.

Giving a few magic items to the church can be handy as it increases your cleric's clout, and also likely means you'll be able to wrangle free healing out of them when you drop by later on (instead of having to pump a few hundred gp into the "poor box"). Same basic deal with the Guild of Sorcery who just might be very helpful later in the campaign - less healing, but more identifying strange magic items and getting sage-like information for you.

[Irda Ranger]

In fact, on the discussion of persons and groups of power collecting items, what they offer isn't cash. Powerful groups offer power. They will offer to "owe you one" for that magic item.

Oh, right, I get it. Like contributing a couple grand to your local legislator's reelection campaign, and then later when a law comes up you don't like (or need modified) you make a phone call.

I ought to encourage this sort of thing by making a separate inventory box on the character sheet - favors owing (with an approximate value field). Helping a Baron get his castle and demense back can be quite profitable down the line.

[austrodavicus]

I have often seen the idea that the old-school Magic User becomes at some level outgrows the need for the rest of the adventuring party, becoming an unstoppable force that can plow through dungeons solo and generally makes all of the other classes redundant. Now the basic purpose of the M-U is to gain access to powers not available to others, but I've always found that their own peculiar frailties balanced this out nicely, and that if anything they where a bit too much of a "glass cannon" for their own good...

This idea has been in the game right from the start and was the opinion of the authors, or at least Gygax. Here's the description of the magic-user from the original 1974 booklet, Men & Magic:

Top level Magic-Users are perhaps the most powerful characters in the game, but it is a long, hard road to the top, and to begin with they are weak, so survival is often the question, unless Fighting-Men protect the low-level magical types until they have worked up. The whole plethora of enchanted items lies at the Magic-Users beck and call, save the arms and armor of the Fighting-Men (see, however, Elves); Magic-Users may arm themselves with daggers only. Wizards and above may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls, and just about anything else magical.

While I agree with your "glass cannon" description kaomera, I guess from the game designer's perspective the fact that from 11th level onwards magic-users can produce their own magic items, and thereby overcome many, if not all of those inherent frailties you listed in the original post, meant that in their eyes the magic-user had the potential to overshadow the other character types. I must admit I wouldn't go as far as to say they thus make "all of the other classes redundant", but at higher levels they can certainly move from the role of protected to protector.