Do you think fantasy requires spell casting?

[Agrippa]

I have a question for everone here at Goblinoid Games, does fantasy require spell casting? Whether in the form of rituals or shaping the caster's own mystical energy. Or do you accept settings that lack such spellslingers and ritualists but still contain supernatural elements as a form of fantasy? This doesn't automatically mean that magical and otherwise superhuman ablities don't exist for heroes and their adversaries, just that spells in and of themselves don't. Perhaps the likes of Miho or Kevin.

[Atomic Ray]

Interesting question, especially considering your character examples.

Perhaps a bit of clarity and rephrasing of your initial question?

I think you were asking if spell casters need to actually cast spells in fantasy settings?

If this is the case, I suspect that this falls back on the idea of old school games being a bit simpler and less complex...and in that context yes spell casters cast spells.

That said, the idea of storing spells with time release elements within staffs, wands, rings, etc. for a point or just use aspect is still valid as the spell was cast at one point.

Should there be times where characters can cast spells without handwavium or other ritual process?

Hmm for LL I would say no.

The hand signs, vocal, and other ritual aspect add to the flavor I would say.

In games as the character types get more plentiful we could see those using spells to trap demons and jinn to their bidding, but still there would be spells at some point.

Maybe simple cantrips, those spells that have little to no game altering aspects...like heating a bowl of soup, lighting a candle, signing your name, tying your shoes, etc...these could be done with a finger wave or a nose gesture without issue to the game IMO.

[3llense'g]

I more and more frequently answer questions with this: I like SotU. It has no spellcaster PCs, only thief-fighter types.

[3d6]

I would say no, but for me personally it does.

[gentleman john]

Does fantasy require spell casting? The answer I think is "No".

To me, fantasy covers more than just the pseudo-medieval or sub-Tolkien. Instead, it can cover a wide range of settings and invoke a large number of tropes. Spell casting is just one of those tropes. However, a fantasy game does require magic. For example, the Pendragon RPG involves a lot of magic. There are dragons, mysterious fay and pagan sorcerors in the game. However (with one notable exception), they have never been player character options. However, it does not detract from the game, which is most definitely fantasy. Other games do have spell casting as a part of the rules, but the necessity for these depends on the setting the referee uses. It's a bit like cyberpunk and netrunners. Yes, they are part of the genre, but you don't necessarily need them in the game. Anyone who has ever played WFRP knows that magic is not something that enhances a PC's lifespan.

One day, I do fancy running a black-powder fantasy game set just as magic leaves the world. I would allow magic-using characters in this game, but they would be at a serious disadvantage unless they developed their knowledge in some other direction.

[Atomic Ray]

Interesting setting.

Perhaps the use of magic draws unwanted attention from witch hunters, fae, supernatural creatures, etc. all seeking that flickering flame of fading magic energies?

Blackpowder is great technological level IMO, I have played around with this sort of setting myself.

More of an Capt Alatriste 17th century swashbuckler game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAcrIr84OdQ&feature=related

I included the classic D&D races...

Hobbits fell into guilds practicing thieving skills and a few assassins

Dwarves backed away from common contact with the other races, digging deep, although a few blacksmiths and metal artists would venture forth

Humans...were humans

Orcs (NPC) took the role of big bad and polar to the elves...running the range of size and shape, average is man sized though great big ones exist

Half-orcs rejected by proper society, it was indentured life as a foot soldier or bonded to one of the shadowy guilds

Elves...I took the Legend and old school route with these guys and gals...all true fae are unique, the more unique the more beautiful even if others find them repulsive, so a childlike body/face with a big bulbous nose would be good looking...all age backwards, rejoin the forest, and start again

Half-elves are from human (hobbit, dwarf, orc, etc.) parent(s) with extended fae world contact or the very rare fae parent...in the end all half-elves favor the fae side and have similar features of being thin, graceful, 5' max height, pale skin, etc.

I included magic but it was almost all cantrips and minor glamour, but without others having much of any magic these minor magics were quite powerful in relative aspect.

Humans and Hobbits required ritual, gesture, and vocal aspects to engage spells, Orcs used blood shaman (evil) magics only, half-elves gain a few extra stats and inherent ability with gesture but get no other spells, half-orcs and dwarves do not have the gift of magic unless they are evil and use sacrifice/blood magics.

So in the same vein as your thought, maybe the use of magic is a lighthouse beacon for all things magic to be drawn to...the useful energies and the malignant, the stronger the spell the more likely that a big bad would show up to consume the source?

The real restriction for the magic user would be how much attention do you want to draw?

Maybe the spell use builds like chains from Christmas Carol, use a spell and add a link to the chain which makes a sound, that the magic creatures can hear...use lots of spells and bear the weight of the chains as well as draw attention?

[gentleman john]

So in the same vein as your thought, maybe the use of magic is a lighthouse beacon for all things magic to be drawn to...the useful energies and the malignant, the stronger the spell the more likely that a big bad would show up to consume the source?

The real restriction for the magic user would be how much attention do you want to draw?

Maybe the spell use builds like chains from Christmas Carol, use a spell and add a link to the chain which makes a sound, that the magic creatures can hear...use lots of spells and bear the weight of the chains as well as draw attention?

Sounds interesting - have spellcasters but have them penalised in some way for doing what they do. Of course, if you do that, either the spells better be worth it or a magic user should have some other means of contributing to the game.

One way of achieving balance that springs to mind would be similar to the rules for Dark Side Force Users in the D20 Star Wars. It was incredibly easy to gain abilities as a Dark Side Jedi, and the powers were wonderfully useful. However, as you went up in level, things happened to you. Like losing stat points or gaining mutations. The Dark Heresy system penalises psykers very nicely, in that they always run the chance of attracting demons from the Warp or being possessed. It always concentrates my dice throwing nicely when the other characters have guns pointed at my character's head.

The key thing is, players have to ask: "Is the power worth what might happen to my character?"

[Agrippa]

What I meant was while magic may exist, it rarely if ever comes in the form of actual spells. Mostly in the form of what Tv Tropes terms Supernatural Martial Arts and Charles Atlas Superpowers, along with minor charms and bizarre and mystical locales.

[Atomic Ray]

So in the same vein as your thought, maybe the use of magic is a lighthouse beacon for all things magic to be drawn to...the useful energies and the malignant, the stronger the spell the more likely that a big bad would show up to consume the source?

The key thing is, players have to ask: "Is the power worth what might happen to my character?"

Indeed, but again if there is little to no magic then even weak magic would be, well magic.

A player is a player and a character is a character...anyone can poke with a spear, aim along an arrow, or get all stabby with a sword.

If a player wants the magic ability I would offer perhaps a power pool with 1D10 of effect that also generates a percentile reaction to the magic use.

For example a 1st level mage would have 10 D10 per day...ahhh a bear, magic missile of fire from my fingers of fantastic function!...1D10, 6hp and the bear hauls his flaming butt elsewhere...then the backlash 01-10% chance of the darkness creeping in, rolls a 41% whew safe.

Ahhhh they have a cave troll! Magic missile of fire from my fingers of fantastic function!...5D10, 4 3 6 5 8 = 26hp...well done the others do their part but you did the heavy lifting!...then the backlash 01-50% chance of the darkness creeping in, rolls a 41% oh no...check the chart 1D10, 5...character visibly ages, gaining wrinkles, hair turns white, loses 10-15lbs of weight, +5yrs of age instantly.

The potential bad news chart (same results become cumulative)

1...hands catch on fire causing 1hp damage and adds +15% to next backlash check target value (lasts 24hrs)
2...massive migraine! Character must stay out of direct light and away from loud noises or become stunned
3...foot or hand gains bestial features such as hoof, claws, webbing
4...become violently sick...vomiting at the least, treat as instant flu
5...age 5yrs instantly
6...unlucky, next backlash check +25% to target value (lasts 24hrs)
7...open gates next magic use will use all remaining D10 (used 2D10 the next spell will be at 8D10)
8...KO for 1D10 rounds
9...character is temporarily blinded! 1D10 rounds
0...Vacuum, all remaining D10 are drained away (lasts 24hrs) (used 2D10, then 8D10 fade away)

Or the like.

Yes it could be ugly. You manage the risk by using 1 or 2 D10 rather than 6 or 7.

At level 2 the character gains EITHER

1D10 to magic pool and -10% to all backlash target values
or
2d10 to magic pool
or
-20% to all backlash target values

Three mages take different paths, all are 4th level

Or Kal Than 4th lvl mage...13D10 magic pool and -30% to backlash target value (can use 1-3D10 without any risk)

Nahtro Lak 4th lvl mage...16D10 magic pool

Kal Orthan 4th lvl mage...10D10 magic pool and -60% to backlash target value (can use 1-6D10 without any risk)

[Gavin]

You could easily run a high fantasy steam punk campaign setting where characters don't cast spells. Magic would exist but could only be tapped into by humans and demihumans by using magic powered technology. So if running a setting like that in LL you would have to drop the class of Magic-Users and Clerics, and tweak the Elves to take away their spell usage which would mean lowering xp leveling for them.

Now that I think of it, that would be a pretty darn interesting campaign setting to design.