The Monk- how to change/improve.

[Black Wyvern]

The 1e oriental adventures had martial arts styles in it. It has been a long time since I read through them but I was thinking that developing a few styles with steps then allowing the monk to get a step in a style at certain levels. A Shaolin practitioner and a Arnis stick fighter would have different flavors but still be essentially the same class.

Crap! I studies Shaolin temple boxing for a while and I can't talk to plants. What a rip!

[connivingsumo]

Crap! I studies Shaolin temple boxing for a while and I can't talk to plants. What a rip!

ROFL ME NEITHER!!

[Denim N Leather]

Perhaps weapon specialization, a la Unearthed Arcana, but for fists and feet?

[Black Wyvern]

I don't remember very well but I kind of think the OA 1e was based of weapon proficiency!?!?

[connivingsumo]

@Denim N Leather:
That could be - I should go dig it out and read it again.

@Black Wyvern:
I never OA because it seemed all Japanese and I didn't really put "monks" and Japanese together until much later in life.

[Denim N Leather]

@Denim N Leather:
That could be - I should go dig it out and read it again.

It's quite gradual but also quite deadly without being overpowered. Basically, it allows:

The character is +1 to hit and +2 damage with the special weapon, on top of all other strength and magic bonuses. The weapon must be a specific type ... In addition, the fighter gets additional attacks per round with the special weapon ... these attacks override the figures given [in the PH].

Level 1-6, 3/2
Level 7-12, 2/1
Level 13+, 5/2

Italics mine. In this case, the monk would choose a style: tiger claw, mantis hand, crane beak, fire arrow punch, roundhouse kick, etc, to be that specific weapon. I think this really suits a monk refit well!

[Blood axe]

Keep in mind that I want to keep the Monk simple. If you want to work on a more complicated version- its ok with me though!

[Denim N Leather]

Keep in mind that I want to keep the Monk simple. If you want to work on a more complicated version- its ok with me though!

hehe; of course, keeping it simple is definitely in the spirit of LL, and if you add too many options (or have them available too soon), it unbalances the class compared to the Fighter. While I personally think that an additional +1 to hit/+2 damage and upping the empty hand damage is all you need to do to make the monk workable in the most basic sense, I certainly wouldn't allow the bonus until about 3rd or 4th level. This will scale nicely with the Fighter who at that time is probably rocking a +1 sword of some type.

Just spit-balling some ideas to make it comparable to other warrior classes while still being unique and having its own flavour. What you do with the info is entirely up to you!

[scadgrad]

@ the OP,

tl;dr I think they work much better in actual play than you might be thinking.

Have you ran one of these yourself or seen one for a reasonable period of time in your own campaign or sessions? I have. I had a player that ran a monk through the entirety of I5 Pharaoh at GenCon. While that is not a lengthy period of time, I can tell you that the monk performed extremely well.

Your initial summary of the monk as a fighter is erroneous. If anything, the monk is an odd mix of cleric and thief. They're not necessarily Eastern in nature, particularly if you've read any Brother Cadfael mysteries. When compared to a thief though, they start looking much better. Their bonuses to the meaningful thief skills are pretty solid, and the ability to avoid damage at higher levels is very nice. Even at 5th level, they will mitigate a considerable amount of incoming ranged damage (35% of missile fire, considerably more reduction from magical ranged damage). Hit points are kind of meh, but at 7th level, they essentially get a d6+1 pip per level beyond 6th added to their HP total. You're all but immune to pitfalls, which, IME are a major PITA for most OD&D characters. Movement is spectacular. You're very rarely surprised and with reasonable skill, monks are quite skilled at surprising opponents.

Sure Speak with Plants seems irrelevant, but in a game of exploration (which is really what OD&D is about), it can be quite handy. It's not that much of a stretch to use it to track wandering monsters back to their lair (where the loot is). If nothing else, it makes your party virtually impossible to track. Your AC and damage output seems very poor, but as the game goes by, I bet you'll find that they get considerably better. Bracers of Armor will be high on your wish list, as will cloaks and rings of protection. Most mid level parties end up w/ items like that, so it's not unreasonable to think you can acquire them. By the time your damage dice gets up to d8 or so, you can become a very solid hit and run combatant. You've at least a 15 Dex and the best movement in the game, only horses and such will be able to keep out of your short range (for a further +1 to hit). Once the bad guys have been whittled down, you move in and hope to get lucky with your HtH strikes. Stunned opponents die very quickly, and occasionally, you'll flat out slay a dude or two.

I think their biggest drawback is the fact that, along with the Paladin and Ranger, they are very difficult to roll up. Their basic attack bonus is also very low and they don't enjoy bonuses to EPs so advance a bit slowly. Hit points in practice are much better than they might appear due to damage mitigation and the healing ability. Additionally, beyond name level, they're one of only 3 classes that continues to roll hit dice AND enjoy a bonus from CON. I think they're fine as is and are great fun. It's bonkers to compare them to fighters when they are a subclass of cleric w/ a bit of thieving ability to replace the spell casting of a cleric. IME they are far more capable combatants than either clerics or thieves.

[ckutalik]

Feign Death should be much earlier, maybe even level one. Having control over your body (if you're thinking an "eastern monk") is what a monk is all about. Something like FD they would learn before they became 'a monk.'

When I've played a monk (only a few times), I didn't even bother with the hand attacks for the 'd4' reason - I always used a pole arm to try and maximize the damage - until later in levels.

One thing I've always disliked about the D&D system is the penalty for not wearing armor, which the monk suffers greatly in early levels. If you're wearing full blown plate mail, your dexterity sucks - period. You're easier to hit, but better protected. If you're not wearing any armor, you're much more agile and -thus- harder to hit, but when you DO get hit... OUCH!!

Monk's picking locks... ya, doesn't make much sense.

I should dig out my AD&D books and look up some of the psionic abilities - because I remember a few of them being pretty "monk/shaolin" like.?

Having played recently with a monk in Scalydemon's Skype game, I have to concur with the suckiness.

Agree with a number of sumo's observations here. I would give the monk at level one or two something like one of the beginning special abilities of magic-users in Empire of the Petal Throne, control body. Basically it was feign death plus the ability to contort your body weirdly, hold your breath indefinitely, etc.

Also second dropping thief abilites about traps and locks in favor of some simple psionic powers.