How to deal with Thac0?

[MythAdvocate]

Hey there,

I ran a convention-style Mutant Fture game at the Library last night. It went well and we had a good time, but the concept of Thac0 really gave some folks a hard time. As a grognard, I do not understand this grumbling.

So my question is- how do you present thac0 to new players? Also, are there any easy illustrations you can recommend to present this simple algorithm?

[Blood axe]

THACO is the number needed to hit AC-0. To find what you need to hit another AC- you just count back.

If THACO is 20, you need a 15 to hit AC5.

Its probably explained clearer & better somewhere else- we just gotta find it.

[Wizardawn]

THACO is the number needed to hit AC-0. To find what you need to hit another AC- you just count back.

If THACO is 20, you need a 15 to hit AC5.

Its probably explained clearer & better somewhere else- we just gotta find it.

Yeah...simple math. Must be a symptom of the current educational system. You basically subtract the target's armor class from 20...

20 - (-2 AC) = 22
20 - (5 AC) = 15
20 - (0 AC) = 20

- Djeryv

[MythAdvocate]

Yeah...simple math. Must be a symptom of the current educational system. You basically subtract the target's armor class from 20...

20 - (-2 AC) = 22
20 - (5 AC) = 15
20 - (0 AC) = 20

- Djeryv

I agree with you wholeheartedly there. You should have seen the faces. Creased brows and glassy eyes.

How about this as an explanation:

THACO is the number needed to hit AC 0. To find what you need to hit an opponent all you do is subtract the targets AC from you characters base Thac0. So if your base If THACO is 20, you need a 15 to hit AC5.

...Think that is clear enough for the post D&D 3E generation?

[Wizardawn]

THACO is the number needed to hit AC 0. To find what you need to hit an opponent all you do is subtract the targets AC from you characters base Thac0. So if your base If THACO is 20, you need a 15 to hit AC5.

...Think that is clear enough for the post D&D 3E generation?

Yea...my explanation assumed your THAC0 was 20. A thing to keep in mind with the 3rd/4th D&D players, Wizards of the Coast basically turned the game into the concept of any high die roll is good and low ones are bad. To those people, it takes a bit to grasp that older D&D is a mixture. You need a high number to hit, but a low number to pick pockets. Even when we were kids in the 80's, there was always that initial question..."a lower armor class number is better?"

- Djeryv

[jasmith]

I'd just print out some copies of their combat charts and give to them. If their eyes start to glaze over, tell them it's like reading a calendar. That usually does the trick.

[Mach Front]

Present it as a target number instead.

If the THAC0 is, say, 17, then one would roll d20 and add the opponents AC. If it's equal or higher, it's a hit.
Look at the combat chart in B/X (or LL) and you can see that to hit AC 5 the roll required is 12.

For example, one would need to roll a 12(+ 5 for the AC) to = their THAC0 of 17.

Roll, add opponent's AC. Equal or greater than the Target THAC0 # is a hit. Done, and same results as using the combat chart and just as easy as the d20 method (you just have to have the THAC0 on the character sheets and as a ref, you'll have to keep track of when someone's THAC0 changes as they level).

[Brad]

Even when we were kids in the 80's, there was always that initial question..."a lower armor class number is better?"

Yeah, but that's just how it was. If I understand this correctly, the players were used to a different version? Hmmm...that's sort of annoying. You don't play chess with someone using checker rules. This whole naming scheme with modern versions of D&D has really distorted people's expectations. If the had named 3.0/3.5/4 something like Wizard Roleplaying Game, I don't think the "low AC" thing would even be an issue; people would understand it's a different game.

[Lord Kilgore]

Don't tell them anything except to write down their THAC0 on their character sheet and that lower is better.

When they attack something, do the math yourself and just tell them if they hit or miss. Players don't need to know the target number. They just need to know if they hit. Let it be black box to them.

You will look like the High Priest of To-Hit, going into the places hidden to normal men and coming out with the Answer of Hit or Miss.

Either that or they're going to have to do some simple math.

I vote for the High Priest approach, myself. The chicks dig it.

[Dyson Logos]

Don't explain it. THAC0 is a pointless exercise in trying to make the game simpler by using math instead of tables. Stick to the tables and let it ride. The best character sheets have a full "to hit" progression on them for the standard ACs from 9 to 0 or lower. Just tell them that they have to roll to hit based on that table on their character sheet, and if ACs are below 0, then the AC number is applied as a penalty to the attack roll. Or something.

Personally, I don't explain it. I just point to the hit progression on the sheet and give them an AC to hit.