A few Magical Items.

[JDJarvis]

And therein lies the issue.

Uh sorry, but therein does not lie the issue you stated earlier of "They are VERY powerful; too powerful for LL"

If I were a player and a) spent the THOUSANDS of gp necessary to make this item, or MONTHS of trial and error ... or, if I were to risk life and limb to get this item in a hoard, and then the DM pulled a random gust of wind, or penalized my usage in this manner, I would cry fowl. It takes the GAME (ie, the FUN) out of having the item. If you have checks and balances already built into the item, then the player learns its limitations and can work with (or around) them. To pull the rug out from under the player because YOU, as DM, gave him something that's too powerful, spoils the FUN.

It'd be like having the lights go out so you couldn't read a scroll. Kinda unfair but NPCs and PCs can certainly limit someone from reading by putting out the lights. One shouldn't try to read in the dark or set flame to candle in breezy drizzle.

On the other hand, imagine this scenario: Magic-user is alone for some reason and hears the baddies coming his way.
MU: I cast Invisibility
DM: Okay, the bad guys enter and start to search for you. One of them pulls out a candle and lights it. To your surprise, you are now visible! The guards raise their crossbows ...

Instead of REWARDING the player for having the foresight (and luck) to pick Invisibilty for the day, you are PENALIZING him. .

So NPCs having the foresight to arm themselves with defensive gear is penalizing the PCs? I can't agree with that notion in the slightest. If candles of revealing are all over the campaign they are going to change things, but so would lots of continual light spells.

Edit: I do like the flavour of it annulling invisibility within its range ... move out of range, and you are invisible again.

Which was my original intent but it wasn't spelled out.

it leaves a LOT open to interpretation

Which is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I think that LL simply doesn't have the mechanics in place to fully balance out such a powerful item.

Sure it does. Wind,water, a robin hood arrow shot to snuff out a candle flame. Players are allowed to think their way out of situations. LL and their ilk don't need every exception and sub-clause carefully stated out , games that do such are why there is LL.

This candle, to me, is a Relic or Wondrous Item, not a simple Magic Item.

"simple magic item" who's saying they are a simple magic item?

Example: What if the player takes the candle and pops it into a lantern? Now he can focus the beam for greater range and it's immune to wind!

The player is being bright. There might be some shelter from the wind but there is no reason to believe the magical properties will be altered in the slightest by the application of mundane devices. If they are capable of doing such in a DMs campaign a player would be foolish or unlucky to not have a lantern on hand to exploit such things.

[Denim N Leather]

Agree to disagree, I'm afraid. You posted the items, I passed comment. Now you're just being defensive and picking apart my every word in an attempt to discredit me. You are ignoring the spirit of what I'm saying and making leaps in my logic that don't exist by inserting lines and then reading between them.

I think your items are overpowered.

You think otherwise.

I could counter quote your counter quotes, but that gets wearisome and I'm not looking to fight.

Have a good night!

[JDJarvis]

Now you're just being defensive and picking apart my every word in an attempt to discredit me. !

I'm sorry if you feel that way. I enjoy discussion and debate and in no way imagine there is something wrong in a person having a different view. I myself enjoy exploring other views and may indeed do so in an argumentative fashion but it's a challenge not an insult.

I myself feel simple, common and mundane solutions that limit the impact of magic items certainly diminish the power of magic items. Magic candles have a lot of shortcomings and are a area that hasn't been explored all that widely to date.

[Blood axe]

They are VERY powerful; too powerful for LL, I would say, except for the whisper knot.

Really?? I disagree. A wand or staff or flametongue sword must be like a nuke in your campaign then.

[elf23]

I was also suprised by the idea that they're overpowered... The revealing candle, for instance, is no more powerful than casting detect invisible (a 2nd level spell) on a few party members (the candle has a longer duration, but the spell has a greater range). Plus the candle also has the downside of preventing the owner and his allies from using invisibility within the range of the candlelight. Each to their own though, I'm sure the expected power levels of magic items varies a lot from campaign to campaign.

Magical candles are definitely an interesting new type of magic item! I found them very flavourful and inspiring, thanks JDJarvis.

[Denim N Leather]

They are VERY powerful; too powerful for LL, I would say, except for the whisper knot.

Really?? I disagree. A wand or staff or flametongue sword must be like a nuke in your campaign then.

(Emphasis mine)

I think you are trying to goad me into an argument, are willfully ignoring my point, or didn't really read what I have written.

Swords, wands, and staves already HAVE built in checks and balances in their class restrictions and usage. They are not items anyone can pickup and no one can save against.

The revealing candle, for instance, is no more powerful than casting detect invisible (a 2nd level spell) on a few party members (the candle has a longer duration, but the spell has a greater range).

No, the candle is much more powerful. Casting Detect Invisible on a few people will require a magic-user of at least 4-5th level using ALL of his 2nd level slots at that level, or who has invested weeks of research/thousands of gp on scrolls, to cast; ie, it costs something to offset its power level.

I found them very flavourful and inspiring

So do I. But these are still unbalanced, and as such, overpowered!

[JDJarvis]

Swords, wands, and staves already HAVE built in checks and balances in their class restrictions and usage. They are not items anyone can pickup and no one can save against.

Magic candles are roughly on par with the utility of warding scrolls, which any class can use. They require access to a physical resource (an open flame) and are vulnerable to a wide range of physical, environmental and magical counters which do indeed diminish the range of practical use.

No, the candle is much more powerful. Casting Detect Invisible on a few people will require a magic-user of at least 4-5th level using ALL of his 2nd level slots at that level, or who has invested weeks of research/thousands of gp on scrolls, to cast; ie, it costs something to offset its power level.

The candle is more powerful. I'd lump it up there with a 5th level spell myself. That means 5 weeks and 2,500 gp (on the cheap side) to manufacture this item per LL magic item creation guidelines, a requirement of a month or two and 10,000+ gp wouldn't' be out of line. I know I'd require a difficult to acquire physical component. The manufacture of this candle will prohibit a MU of 9th level or higher from using any of their spell slots in a gainful fashion for the duration of the objects manufacture, that's not a lack of investment or inconsiderable cost of power by my reasoning.

I'm enjoying this conversation on the relative power of a magical item. I think it reveals different approaches in playing style. In all likelihood no more then 3 or 4 Revealing Candles would turn up in my campaigns over 2 or 3 years of play sessions.

[Denim N Leather]

^ LOVING the additional details; now they need to be worked into the actual item descriptions so that they can be ported into someone's game! I think that you are definitely on to something here. You could probably pitch it as an article for Fight On, in fact. Add some flavour text, finalize the mechanics and balance, and you will have some VERY powerful alternate magic items!!

[Blood axe]

Denim- Im not trying to goad you into an arguement. I did read what you wrote- I just disagree with you. So insinuating I didnt read/understand your post because I disagree with you isnt cool.

This comes off as a bit snobby.
""I think you are trying to goad me into an argument, are willfully ignoring my point, or didn't really read what I have written.""

How about a ring of protection?? No class limits.No "built in checks/balances". Anyone can use them.

[Denim N Leather]

How about a ring of protection?? No class limits.No "built in checks/balances". Anyone can use them.

What about them? That is beside the point: ie, that THESE PARTICULAR ITEMS are overpowered. Rings are also overpowered and quite broken. Pointing to a similar overpowered/broken item doesn't make these items any LESS overpowered or broken. If you put something out into the public domain, it's due dilligence on your part to make sure it will work in the most applications possible, unless you are specifically making a Relic or Wondrous Item, which the OP has already said he is NOT.

The OP is already taking steps to balance the items out. To harp on this particular sting is pointless.

Denim- Im not trying to goad you into an arguement.

But then in the same breath you mention a Ring of Protection ... I'm still not entirely sure you get my point, but regardless -- I do apologise if I've hurt your feelings. Was/is not my intention!